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    compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

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    Ian- Karen Mok Fan
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    compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Ian- Karen Mok Fan on 13/07/10, 06:12 pm

    hi everyone

    rather than start by asking the Consulate in GZ or the Border Agency here and taking forever to get a reply. i was wondering if anyone has had their wife use up all her Visa allowance time for leaving the UK, but then on compassionate grounds needing to leave UK for family reasons (example being family death or medical emergency).

    currently my wife has had to stay in Nanning looking after her mother who is ill, and this has cut out 5 or 6 weeks from the 3 month allowance.

    As my Wife wont fly to UK until 2nd August, but visa granted for entry on 23rd June, does anyone know if you can contact the border agency and get them to add one more month to the Visa as she has not actually entered the country yet, and used up any of the visa allowance?

    regards
    Ian


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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Guest on 13/07/10, 06:28 pm

    This may be of interest to you taken from the border agency at
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/partnersandfamilies/partners/indefiniteleavetoremain/

    Applying to settle here if you delayed your entry to the UK
    If you were given permission to enter the UK as a husband, wife, civil partner or unmarried/same-sex partner but you then delayed your travel to the UK by up to three months, you can apply to live here permanently using application form SET(M) shortly before your permission to enter ends. As long as you meet the other requirements of the rules, we will put your application on hold until you have completed your two-year qualifying period in the UK.
    If you were given permission to enter the UK as a husband, wife, civil partner or unmarried/same-sex partner but you then delayed your travel to the UK by more than three months, you will need to apply using application form FLR(M) for a further probationary period of two years. If we give you a further probationary period and you meet all the other requirements of the settlement rules (including the Knowledge of Life test), you will be able to apply for settlement as soon as you have completed a total of two years' probation (adding together your time spent in the UK under your initial permission to enter as a husband, wife, civil partner or unmarried/same-sex partner, and the necessary number of months from your second probationary period).

    If your wife visa was granted on the 23rd June be she be arriving in England on the 2nd August this will be within your three-month period cannot see a problem really or am I miss something.



    Last edited by Robert on 13/07/10, 06:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added more information)
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    handyal
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by handyal on 13/07/10, 07:42 pm

    Hi Ian,
    There are no such grounds for compassionate leave, not even a death in the family.

    The rules are quite clear for Entry Clearance, and the conditions you need to meet in order to get ILR.
    Your wife is given an initial 27 month Visa. For ILR you must have completed 24 months residency in the UK as just one of the conditions. Basically your are allowed 13 weeks tops outside of the UK from the date of the Visa.

    If for any reason you do not meet this condition, for example you have been absent from the UK for 4 months, then you must apply for FLR to extend the period. Having then gained the 1 month required to obtain 24 months residency, you can apply for ILR as long as you meet the other conditions.

    Excuses for absence are not negotiable. How you spend the time outside of the UK is not there concern, whether it be delays in arrival, holidays, family problems, or bereavements. The regulations are the same for everyone.

    Colleges providing ESOL courses will usually only allow a maximum of 4 weeks absence before they consider terminating your course because they feel you wouldn't be able to catch up and pass the examination.

    Your wife is under these restrictions, not you, but you must both consider the options and the consequencies.
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    Chris Seaborn
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 13/07/10, 09:58 pm

    It would be more expensive I know but Ian, if your wife had a return ticket could she fly to the UK to satisfy the requirements then fly back to look after her mother. My wife had to go home because her mum was dying and we were told (Australia) that she had multiple entries on her visa and it would not upset her PR at all, and it didn't. I think it's the initial entry time that is important. Our rules seem similar to the UK so this may be an option.
    Good luck,
    Chris
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by makem on 13/07/10, 10:37 pm

    handyal wrote:Basically your are allowed 13 weeks tops outside of the UK from the date of the Visa.

    I think you are wrong Ian.

    You can spend a 'reasonable' time out of the UK and it is better if you can prove you travel with your spouse.

    A death or a marriage would be a good reason for returning home for a short period. I do not think you are tied to the UK for 24 months. You can holiday together for a 'reasonable' time. But it would be wise to be in the UK for the last few months of the 24.

    You have to prove a genuine ongoing relationship based in the UK imho.

    You can enter the UK any time you wish after the visa is granted. But, unless you want to pay for FLR you must arrive within the first 3 months to allow for 24 months residency. Once you arrive, what absences you have must be reasonable. based on what 'normal' English people do.

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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Guest on 13/07/10, 11:01 pm

    The actual wording on the UK board website says which have copied,

    Time spent outside the UK
    The Immigration Rules do not say that you must have been in the UK for the entire two years of your permission to stay as a husband, wife, civil partner or unmarried/same-sex partner. Your application to settle here will be judged on its merits, taking into account your reasons for travel, the length of your absences, and whether you and your partner travelled and lived together while you were outside the UK. If you have spent a limited time abroad in connection with your job, for example, this should not count against you..............................



    As you will see says judge on its merits and your reason for travel and length of your absences if you say for a marriage would two weeks be reasonable doesn't say how many times you're allowed to leave the country its once or twice in that two-year period three or four times in two year period may be judge too excessive, the word on its merit can mean one marriage it's open to interpretation and each immigration officer may judge it different if you're in excess of your 13 weeks you would be expected to give a very good reason I would expect it would-be family commitments just holidays you be on thin ice



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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by makem on 13/07/10, 11:32 pm

    Robert wrote: if you're in excess of your 13 weeks you would be expected to give a very good reason I would expect it would-be family commitments just holidays you be on thin ice


    Where does the 13 weeks come from Robert?

    Your 24 month 'resident' in the UK starts from the moment you step on UK soil.

    Surely the 27 month visa is to allow you to settle your affairs before you step foot in the UK?

    I don't think you could enter immediately after the visa is granted and have 13 weeks out of the UK and still qualify.


    Last edited by makem on 13/07/10, 11:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Guest on 13/07/10, 11:36 pm

    Your settlement visa is for 27 months 24 months =3 months=13 weeks


    No you can use your 13 weeks before you come here or any time in between but the understanding is you must have 24 months in the UK unless you have a reasonable excuse which as they say will be a judge on its merits this as a understand it could be interpreted as you said from the day you landed 24 months continuously doesn't actually say this on UK border agency website the actual wording is " you must have been in the UK for the entire two years of your permission to stay as a husband, wife, civil partner or unmarried/same-sex partner"


    The Keyword is "entire" which means unbroken so you're not allow out UK without a reasonable excuse and if you are this will be judged on its merits so you have to be here continuously for 24 months

    on a personal level my wife went to China for three weeks within the two year period and nothing was said


    sorry to be rambling on debating this between myself lol
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by MadGee on 14/07/10, 02:09 am

    Hi All,

    To me, it's blatantly obvious that if you don't want to run the risk of problems with ILR application, then you interpret the 24 months in the UK required within the 27 month period allocated, as 24 months!
    There are no 'laid down stipulations' for this, so is it worth the risk of refusal after you have spent a lot of time and money getting your wife by your side. Argue and protest all you like, it's going to be up to the officer dealing with the application and if they say no .... it's no!

    Ian,

    An understandable predicament, could be worth a try to see if they will extend it but I doubt it.

    Eric,

    You can spend a 'reasonable' time out of the UK and it is better if you can prove you travel with your spouse.

    A death or a marriage would be a good reason for returning home for a short period. I do not think you are tied to the UK for 24 months. You can holiday together for a 'reasonable' time. But it would be wise to be in the UK for the last few months of the 24.

    You have to prove a genuine ongoing relationship based in the UK imho.

    You can enter the UK any time you wish after the visa is granted. But, unless you want to pay for FLR you must arrive within the first 3 months to allow for 24 months residency. Once you arrive, what absences you have must be reasonable. based on what 'normal' English people do.

    IMHO, It,s not just about proving a genuine relationship, it's also about the adjustment and integration into UK life.
    You say you will tour Europe with Han and possibly other trips abroad. This will involve many weeks outside the UK?
    This is not what 'normal' people do in the UK and will not be judged as helping her to integrate into UK life. There is no way round this Eric, as much as you want to continue your travelling, you are not going to get the definite answer you want from immigration. It's quite clear that it's up to their discretion, not your interpretation. 'Normal' people might have 2 weeks a year abroad.
    If you want to run the risk of, what could be deemed as excessive time out of the country, then that's your interpretation not theirs, so argue all you like, immigration will have the final say, not you.

    MadGee
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    Ian- Karen Mok Fan
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Ian- Karen Mok Fan on 14/07/10, 06:07 am

    hi everyone,

    thanks for all the input, i will read this all in detail in a minute or two, but a bit more information on why i ask this.

    when we went to apply for the Visa on 23rd March we were asked what date we wanted the visa to be authorised for entry into the UK, we asked for mid July or even early August, but were told the latest we could have was 23rd June (3 months from application date).

    you do have a 3month (13 week) period when you can pretty much do what you want, so long as you complete the 24 month qualification period. but in this time you do have to show ties to the UK and your wife's integration.

    if you have used up nearly all of your 3 month period, for travelling to China for family reasons, but then find you need to take an extra week for emergency visit to Nanning near the end of your time period, is how much with Border Agency take into account your situation.

    The only places we will be travelling in the next 2 years will be to Hong Kong and China, not even to Europe.


    in regards to integration for a wife coming to UK, she has to show so much, but at the same time i am still trying to figure out how some enclaves of foreigners in Birmingham can get get security cameras taken down, also the communities in Bradford which both dont really seem to be integrating into UK life much. i live in hope that one day these communities will be asked to take language proficiency exams and prove knowledge of UK.

    regards
    Ian
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    handyal
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by handyal on 14/07/10, 06:19 am

    makem wrote:
    Your 24 month 'resident' in the UK starts from the moment you step on UK soil.
    Your right to residency starts on the day you are allowed entry to the UK as dated on your Visa, not from when you decide to arrive. The 27 months starts from the date of the Visa, so time spent delaying your entry is inclusive.

    A working man would 'reasonably' be expected to take 2/3 weeks vacation a year, within a normal family. It is not unreasonable for your wife to take a couple of weeks to finalise her affairs in China before coming to the UK. These are reasonable periods of absence that the UKBA allow.

    A retired person may take more vacations, that's OK to, the UKBA give you an option. If at the end of your 27 month Visa you do not have 24 months completed residency in the UK, then you can apply for FLR. (Another 2 year temp Visa).
    Once you have met the 24 month residency condition you can apply for ILR without waiting for the FLR to expire.

    You must also obtain an ESOL qualification level, which if you spend to much time abroad, I fail to see how you could achieve this.
    Without the ESOL and/or the 24 month residency, you again have the option of FLR to allow more time to meet the conditions of ILR.

    The 24 month residency period is not a continuous period, it can be accrued over any given period.
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by makem on 14/07/10, 06:31 am

    Graham50 wrote:
    If you want to run the risk of, what could be deemed as excessive time out of the country, then that's your interpretation not theirs, so argue all you like, immigration will have the final say, not you.

    MadGee

    Of course!

    If you look more closely you may find that time is the EU is looked on more favourably. I am sure I have read this somewhere.

    I will not jeapodise Hans application for ILR. I was just stating the facts as I read them.

    As for the 13 weks, I am still convinced that this can be ignored when considering time out of the UK. Han will have used 1 month of that time when she arrives.

    Take the case of a person who needs to stay in China for close to the 13 weeks, still leaving enough time to qualify for residency. Is that person not allowed any holiday in 2 years? I think not. I still feel that she will be a llowed at least 2 weeks each year, if not 2 x 2 weeks each year which is what is generally normal.

    This follows 2 conversations I had with border control officers. However I will be attempting to get something on paper later.

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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Guest on 14/07/10, 07:55 am

    The question what not been asked or answer fully is why do they have this 24 month ruling if we understand is more we understand the 24 month ruling and why.

    The visa you're applying for it is a ILR visa for your partner in this case your wife so straightaway its complete different to say a working visa. When you apply for a settlement visa you have to prove a relationship this still applies within the two-year period your relationship is sincere and still going strong
    In the last four years the government has deemed all foreign immigrants from outside EU be able to speak basic English and integrate into the community hoping to prevent immigration ghettos within our communitys this is why they introduce ESOL qualification so they know you reach the standard required.

    Before they had this ruling your wife can arrive here for a few weeks then return home for a few months then within the two-year period she could in theory be here only for six months after she completed her two-year period she be entitled to a permanent resident visa what we know as ILR visa when she obtain her visa she could divorce you very easily your purpose has been served. This is the reason why you after prove you're with your husband when you're outside the UK as laid down by the UK border agency.

    As we all know in the two-year period is to learn to a foreign-language is certainly not very long especially when you're not allowed any education till you been here 12 months and the older you are the more difficult it will be so reasonably you're allowed to have three weeks outside the UK perhaps each year as they say this is judged on their merits not yours, if you're spending a lot of time out side UK but in EU this will not make any difference because if you say six to eight weeks in Europe each year how can you learn English or British culture say in Spain or Italy, you may be European citizen but your wife is not.


    So you still have to prove you're living together your relationship is still successful (is not on the rocks which has happened to two previous members) and your wife understanding of English language and British culture is to required standard within your two-year period which can only be achieved if you're here for the entire two years, perhaps now we understand why they have this ruling and the rules and conditions which they apply.

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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by makem on 14/07/10, 09:44 am

    Robert wrote:
    As we all know in the two-year period is to learn to a foreign-language is certainly not very long especially when you're not allowed any education till you been here 12 months

    I have just arranged an interview and test for my wife at a local Adult Education Centre. This Centre teach from pre-Level 1 onwards.

    The course starts in September this year and because my wife will not have been resident for 1 year the cost will be 8 per hour, 2 hours per week for 30 weeks. The money has to baid up front. After 1 year the course is free.

    Following that test I have arranged a further test at a local college. This college only teach from Level 1 upwards and I have not yet asked the conditions or the cost. I presume the conditions will be similar to the other centre but the cost, I expect to be higher.

    I have done this because we are not sure if Han can start study for Level 2.

    I am aware of the other requirements, other than language and also the evidence required.

    Any holidays would of course be outside study periods and within Border Control guidance.


    Last edited by makem on 14/07/10, 09:47 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typing error)

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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by Guest on 14/07/10, 10:10 am

    What I didn't make clear you're not allowed to have state subsidised education till your wife been here for 12 months, if you go private there is no restriction which every member cannot afford. The payments for State Education varies from different local authorities from as little as 100 to as much as 350 per course, in Scotland as I understand it's free, the same with private education the fees vary up and down the country reaching as high 14 an hour this will change in September when fees are set for the year. If you fail you're allowed to take ESOL again to reach the standard required

    You must make sure if you go to a private or state college your college must be accredited
    An 'accredited college' is

    a publicly funded college which is subject to inspection by Ofsted or its devolved equivalents; or
    a private college which is accredited by Accreditation UK, the British Accreditation Council (BAC), the Accreditation Body for Language Services (ABLS) or the Accreditation Service for International Colleges (ASIC).
    Even these colleges do not always do accredited course so make sure your wife is studying accredited ESOL course
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by handyal on 14/07/10, 05:49 pm

    Hi Eric,
    for the latest update on ESOL guidance (ammended 17/6/2010) for the providers, i.e. Colleges and Adult Learning Centres, and the provisions they need to now meet, try this link.

    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/news/guidance-for-esol-providers.pdf

    I have already been informed that last years costs of 100, will increase to 350 for the next term. After reading this document you can understand why. It's important to check with any ESOL provider that they meet these new standards.
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by handyal on 14/07/10, 06:27 pm

    With reference to the Visa issue, perhaps I could answer it from a different angle.

    Everyone seems fixated on ILR, so what are the requirements:
    Proof of continued relationship and cohabitation at the same address.
    An appropriate certified ESOL course with citizenship material.
    24 months residency in the UK.

    I have no problems to understand that, it's quite clear. Where does it say on the UKBA site you must complete these requirements before your current Visa expires ?

    Everyone will have different circumstances, needs, and musts, so if there is a delay to come to the UK, extended holidays abroad, or an urgent need to return to China, where is the problem?

    The UKBA offer alternatives, if you can't meet the requirements for ILR, simply apply for FLR to allow more time to get your ESOL qualification, or to rack up your residency time in the UK. The 24 month period doesn't have to run continuously.

    The arguement against, or the interpretation of the residency term is not negotiable.
    If your wife had the 24 month residency, but failed the ESOL course, would you find the same arguement and try to interprete the ESOL requirements any differently. No!

    Once you have the requirement to apply for ILR, then apply, there is no time limit. If your wifes Visa expires before you can meet the requirements, then extend it, FLR. Now you have another two years to reach the requirements.

    I have seen talk of extended holidays, flights to China, all manners of extras that will incurr numerous costs, and then the constant excuses to justify 475 for FLR. Get your priorities in order gents. You want to apply for ILR when her Visa expires, abise by the rules, stop complaining and feeling your case is different to others.

    Think of the 475 as a cheap holiday, freedom, time to take extended holidays, visit relatives in China as often as your money allows. It's no big deal, you make the choices. The UKBA aren't restricting you, they give you the choices to make!

    One more point. In my local region there are no Colleges or Learning centres offer entry level 1 ESOL with citizen material.
    This means I have no option other than to apply for FLR, in order to allow more time for Ling to take the entry level 2 which does contain the citizenship material, and the College meets the other requirements.
    By January, when we must reapply, we will have met all of the requirements except those of the ESOL.
    I should be the first to complain, I'm not happy, but that's the luck of the draw. I can only go with the flow, I can't fight it.

    Flip side, I don't worry about holidays or if Ling had an emergency to deal with in China.
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    Re: compassionate grounds for leaving UK, has anyone tried this?

    Post by makem on 14/07/10, 07:34 pm

    handyal wrote:Hi Eric,
    for the latest update on ESOL guidance (ammended 17/6/2010) for the providers, i.e. Colleges and Adult Learning Centres, and the provisions they need to now meet, try this link.

    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/news/guidance-for-esol-providers.pdf

    Seen that earlier Alan and have printed it to take to the places of learning ty.

    Whether Han will need FLR depends on her current level when tested early next month ready for a start in Sept/Oct. 480 for us.

    Today she told me she was selected to be a TV announcer many years ago and gets paid to write 'articles'. She wants to write a novel - shame it will be in Chinese Sad

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