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    Travelling in the EU

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    makem
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    Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 09/09/10, 12:51 pm

    Having done research and awaiting a reply about the Entry Clearance Visa (Settlement Visa)issued for 2 years to your spouse, I would like to add in this thread any info I come across. Contibutions gratefully accepted Smile

    One which needs following up is:

    http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/london/en/07/Visa/__Visabestimmungen.html

    This states that the spouse of a EU citizen can apply for a German Visa (Schengen) by post without paying a fee. It is just necessay to supply a few documents and a special delivery envolope.

    I would think that this 'bypassing' of the usual Schengen Visa route is because your spouse will not be an illegal immigrant in Germany so issuing the visa is effectively a formality.

    If you were going to spend most of your time in Germany you could use this route to visit France of anywhere in the EU it appears.

    Maybe, with further investigation we can find that France also operate a similar system.

    Application by post:

    If you are a spouse of an EU or German national, or if you have had a Schengen visa from the German Embassy London issued within the past 12 months, you may apply by post. In addition to the required documents please add a self-addressed "Special Delivery" envelope and the visa fee in postal orders. (There is no visa fee for spouses of EU or German nationals.) Please be aware that application by post can take 8 to 15 working days.

    Documents required for spouses of EU nationals:

    EU-national's passport + copy
    applicant's passport + copy
    marriage certificate + copy
    address in Germany
    visa application form with one passport picture
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    Beijing2008
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 09/09/10, 04:06 pm

    It is part of the 2010 EU visacode.Problem is that not all EU embassy did implement it....
    Look at HollandinChina.org;
    http://www.minbuza.nl/en/Services/Consular_Services/Visa
    Family members of EU/EEA nationals
    If you are a family member of an EU/EEA or Swiss national, you may qualify for an accelerated free visa procedure as long as you meet the following criteria:

    you are a first-degree family member (this includes a spouse, partner or child who is under 21) of an EU/EEA or Swiss national; AND
    that EU/EEA national is travelling to or is residing in another member state than that of which he/she is a national; AND
    you are accompanying the EU/EEA national or planning to join him/her.
    If you think you qualify for visa facilitation you will need to show proof that you meet these criteria when you submit your visa application.


    So this is meant for spouse/familymembers of EU-communitycitizen( people who used the right of free movement/labour/services,so f.e. a Dutchy who lived/worked in Belgium, or Germany or any other EU country)
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 09/09/10, 05:41 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:It is part of the 2010 EU visacode.Problem is that not all EU embassy did implement it....
    Look at HollandinChina.org;
    http://www.minbuza.nl/en/Services/Consular_Services/Visa
    Family members of EU/EEA nationals
    If you are a family member of an EU/EEA or Swiss national, you may qualify for an accelerated free visa procedure as long as you meet the following criteria:

    you are a first-degree family member (this includes a spouse, partner or child who is under 21) of an EU/EEA or Swiss national; AND
    that EU/EEA national is travelling to or is residing in another member state than that of which he/she is a national; AND
    you are accompanying the EU/EEA national or planning to join him/her.
    If you think you qualify for visa facilitation you will need to show proof that you meet these criteria when you submit your visa application.


    So this is meant for spouse/familymembers of EU-communitycitizen( people who used the right of free movement/labour/services,so f.e. a Dutchy who lived/worked in Belgium, or Germany or any other EU country)

    Are you saying that a UK born citizen is not an EU/EEA National?

    I cannot open the link you posted.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 09/09/10, 05:53 pm

    France

    No charge: the following citizens pay no application fees:

    - foreign members of a EU/EEA citizens family (amended decree of 11 March 1994);

    - foreign spouse of a French citizen (decree 98-839 of 18 September 1998);

    - to facilitate the movement of young people:

    So your spouse will have to pay 60 Euro? It's all wrong and needs changing.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 09/09/10, 06:20 pm

    This is the document we should aim to obtain for our wives:

    http://www.justlanded.com/english/UK/UK-Guide/Visas-Permits/Residence-Permits

    It can be obtained from:

    Lin Homer,
    UK Border Agency (UKBA)
    2 Marsham Street, London
    SW1P 4DF

    Maybe there is where we need to direct our enquiry to stop the discrimination our spice/spouses (what is the plural of spouse?) suffer.

    I shall give it a try if I don't hear from the UGBA within a reasonable time and before writing to an MP.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 09/09/10, 07:57 pm

    Only way to get your Chinese spouse to the UK is going to live in Ireland, or in an other EU country for at least 4 months. Then she can come to that country,get a residence permit and from there you go back together, and apply for an UK EU/EER residence permit.
    No language test needed a.s.o.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 09/09/10, 08:03 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:Only way to get your Chinese spouse to the UK is going to live in Ireland, or in an other EU country for at least 4 months. Then she can come to that country,get a residence permit and from there you go back together, and apply for an UK EU/EER residence permit.
    No language test needed a.s.o.

    My wife is living currently with me in the UK!

    My problem is that I want her to be able to travel in the EU Countries as I do, without the need to obtain a Schengen Visa for every day trip we make.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 09/09/10, 08:18 pm

    makem wrote:France

    No charge: the following citizens pay no application fees:

    - foreign members of a EU/EEA citizens family (amended decree of 11 March 1994);

    - foreign spouse of a French citizen (decree 98-839 of 18 September 1998);

    - to facilitate the movement of young people:

    So your spouse will have to pay 60 Euro? It's all wrong and needs changing.

    You are EU/EEA citizens, so if you act like I said in my last post, your wife can come with a free visa, and from there to the UK.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 09/09/10, 09:09 pm

    My wife now lives in the UK. She has an Entry Clearance Visa (Settlement Visa)

    We want to travel from the UK to for example, Holland and/or Germany.

    From there we want to return to our home in the UK.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by davidmckendrick on 10/09/10, 05:47 am

    You could always try for a multientry Schengen visa!
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 10/09/10, 08:09 am

    makem wrote:My wife now lives in the UK. She has an Entry Clearance Visa (Settlement Visa)

    We want to travel from the UK to for example, Holland and/or Germany.

    From there we want to return to our home in the UK.
    I was speaking in general, for members who do not have their spouse with them in UK.
    For travelling in EU , it must be possible to get a Schengen visa, from any EU Embassy.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by davidmckendrick on 10/09/10, 12:46 pm

    Hi Beijing,
    Of course it is easy to get a free Schengen visa if you are close to a foreign EU embassy and have plenty of time to stand around in queues. But some of us would like our wives to be afforded the same luxury as us of just deciding to go somewhere in Europe and going without having to arrange tickets, accommodation, travel insurance and visas weeks in advance.

    David
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 19/09/10, 08:04 pm

    So far it has been 2 weeks since I wrote to the UK Boder Agency with my complaint. No reply or acknowledgemant has been received.

    My letter to our local MP Simon Burns is drafted and ready to send after one month.

    During the researchy for that letter I came across:

    "The following individuals can enter the United Kingdom without a visa:

    As of right

    * Citizens of Commonwealth countries who, although not British citizens, have the right of abode in the United Kingdom
    * Citizens of European Union member states"

    From:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_in_the_European_Union

    So, it would appear 'they' can visit us easily but we cannot easily visit 'them'.

    I am wondering if that is still the case, or have our rules changed?

    I also came across this interesting EU wide free service - SOLVIT UK:

    http://www.borderpeople.info/index/commute/browse/browse-detail.htm?objId=7086&theme=theme01&category=category02


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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 19/09/10, 08:43 pm

    If I evetually get nowhere I will try this with Han:

    Being at the border without the necessary entry visa

    It is always better that your non-EU family members are well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey. However, if it happens that your family members arrive at the border without the required entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by any means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

    If I remember rightly your documents are not checked when you board a ferry and sometimes are not checked in Calais. So, if we take 'evidence' of marriage and abode then it is worth a gamble for a day out.

    http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 20/09/10, 03:43 pm

    makem wrote:


    I also came across this interesting EU wide free service - SOLVIT UK:

    http://www.borderpeople.info/index/commute/browse/browse-detail.htm?objId=7086&theme=theme01&category=category02



    I applied via their web page, as Han's representative, to SOLVIT asking that they make enquiries on her behalf.

    This is the reply I received today:

    Good morning Mr Watson <>

    I am responding to the complaint you have made to SOLVIT about the visa given to your wife that has not been accepted by the French Authorities.

    Whether or not the UK has issued the correct visa will depend on whether you are a UK or EU national resident in the UK. The visa referred to by the French Authorities is granted to the family members of EU nationals who are resident in another Member State, who have exercised their free movement right to move within the EU. The visa your wife has appears to be that which is given to the family member of a UK national, under UK national legislation. EU legislation usually only applies to citizens who are resident in a Member State other than their Home Member State, the exception being where they have returned there from having resided elsewhere in the EU.

    There is no obligation on France to accept a visa issued by the UK. The UK would not accept a French visa, issued under EU or French legislation, as an exemption from the visa requirement. However, as France have decided to recognise visas issued in other Member States, they should recognise a visa issued under UK national legislation as well as under EU legislation. I shall take forward a complaint on your behalf through SOLVIT. As you have attached the necessary documents, all I now need is a signed consent form, attached. A scan or fax of the document is fine, my fax no is 020 7215 2234.

    Regards

    Christine Korcz
    UK SOLVIT Centre
    Direct line: 020 7215 2833

    For information, this is what the consent form contains:

    CONSENT FORM

    I hereby consent to Action Single Market/UK SOLVIT Centre (BIS) disclosing my personal data, including any sensitive personal data, that I have provided in connection with my complaint about my ability to exercise my European Treaty rights, to the relevant authorities in other Member States, and/or the European Commission as appropriate.

    I also consent to such information being disclosed to the European Commission for the purpose of monitoring the operation and efficiency of the SOLVIT Network.

    In accordance with Part II of Schedule 1 of the Data Protection Act 1998 the Data Controller is the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. If you have any queries concerning the processing of the information you have provided us with, you should contact Chris Korcz, the Head of the Unit, on 020 7215 2833.


    I notice that 'Chris Korcz, the Head of the Unit' bears the same name as the person replying to my complaint.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 20/09/10, 04:15 pm

    As I explained, YOU don't need a visum to Europe Continent, Han does.As she is NOT an UK national.
    Only solution is:1) she gets UK nationality
    2) You 2 emigrate to the EU continent,or Ireland ,register and live there together for more than 3 months, and you will be after aknowledgement of your EU rights , EU/EER Communitysitizen.And can travel together freely in the EU!No visa, no borders.
    You can complain as much as you want, it is EC/EER law.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by handyal on 20/09/10, 04:30 pm

    Isn't that Eric's point that it seems an unfair law !
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 20/09/10, 04:49 pm

    Probably, but laws are made to obey.My wife also has e 5yr staying permit, but if we want to go to the UK she also needs a visa.

    The spouse of a friend of mine was refused to board in Brussels on an flight from Brussels to HK, with a transfer on Heathrow, because his Chinese wife didn't have a transit visa fo UK.
    He he still fighting to get his money back....

    ( In fact according to the EC Metock arrest, the third country spouse of a EC/EER citizen is allowed to enter the country of her husbands nationality , IF she can prove, she is going to another EC country.IF her husband is living there.
    And in that country, she can apply for a staying permit. But do you want to take the risk ? Because , If you live in an other EC country , she also can apply for a free Entry visa. Problem is however, that many EC countries are stalling the application
    I'm now fighting against Belgian Embassy/Government, for a visa for an Algerian husband, who's Dutch wife is living and working in Belgium. We are fighting since August 6...Having rights doesn't always mean GETTING your rights. Solvit isn't much of a help,since it is an Foreign Affairs unit, so now I filed a complaint to the European Parliament Legal Committee...)
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 20/09/10, 05:27 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote: As I explained, YOU don't need a visum to Europe Continent, Han does.As she is NOT an UK national.
    Only solution is:1) she gets UK nationality
    2) You 2 emigrate to the EU continent,or Ireland ,register and live there together for more than 3 months, and you will be after aknowledgement of your EU rights , EU/EER Communitysitizen.And can travel together freely in the EU!No visa, no borders.
    You can complain as much as you want, it is EC/EER law.

    I have a simple short reply to your 'it is law' statement - how do laws get changed?

    It takes somebody to stand up and face the law makers with a reasonable argument that makes the law makers reconsider their law.

    I appear to have a reasonable argument.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 20/09/10, 08:15 pm

    I understand your opinion, but according to International law , the argument is invalid.Since she is no Citizen, but a foreign person with a permit to stay.
    So only the info I gave you, could help solve that problem.And THAT info is using international law.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by makem on 20/09/10, 09:17 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:I understand your opinion, but according to International law , the argument is invalid.Since she is no Citizen, but a foreign person with a permit to stay.
    So only the info I gave you, could help solve that problem.And THAT info is using international law.

    My friend, you seems to be missing the point.

    I know the law, international and local, but laws can be changed in a democratic society.

    I would like to see the law changed.

    None of the information you have given will allow me and my wife to visit an EU Country for a day trip in the manner in which I have become accustomed.

    It is my desire to have the law correctly applied or changed if necessary.

    I am sure you are widely experienced and will know that all laws are open to interpretation and 'stated cases' which effectively change how a law (the same law) is applied, without change.

    The law makers are human, just like us. I have rubbed shoulders with some of them and I can tell you, they are not as widely experienced in the world as we may think. They are not Gods and their word is not Gospel unless you live in an autocratic society.

    So, let us have change!

    I suggest any further comment along this vein should take place in the vault rather than disrupt this thread.
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    Re: Travelling in the EU

    Post by Beijing2008 on 21/09/10, 10:56 am

    We are still talking about travelling in the EU.As I pointed out, the Metock arrest is something you can fall back on.
    Especially, when you travel together , you should be able to go to the mainland.
    From the info you give,and got from officials, is not clear IF an visum is needed, when you go together.
    Changing national law takes a lot of time, Europe wide law changing takes many years.
    A complaint at European Court already takes about minimum 2 yrs....

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