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    FLR (M)

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    paulnottingham
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    FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 21/12/10, 07:04 pm

    My fiance is in the UK on a student Visa - we will be marrying in China in February and then returning to the UK to make a FLR M application.

    My main questions are around the evidence of income and accomodation.

    My partner works a few hours part time - and full time out of term time which is allowed under her visa.

    I work full time.

    We do not currently live together but will do so once we are married in my house on which I have a mortgage.

    Will showing my payslips and bank statements be enough to satisfy the criteria?

    Her bank statements will show rent etc that she will no longer be paying so do not seem relevant to the application.

    Is there a minimum disposable income I need to show each month?
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    handyal
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by handyal on 21/12/10, 08:03 pm

    Section 10 of the application form details all the documents you need.
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/partnersandfamilies/partners/husbandswivescivilpartners/applying-inside-uk/

    You have until mingmings student visa expires to apply for FLR.
    You have that period to prove through documentation you are living together as man and wife.

    Mingming will have the right to work and full free use of the NHS but no recourse to public funds.
    Read the information in this link thoroughly.
    http://nanninginfosite.editboard.com/t1885-uk-information-after-your-wife-arrives

    paulnottingham
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 21/12/10, 08:12 pm

    handyal wrote:Section 10 of the application form details all the documents you need.
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/partnersandfamilies/partners/husbandswivescivilpartners/applying-inside-uk/

    You have until mingmings student visa expires to apply for FLR.
    You have that period to prove through documentation you are living together as man and wife.

    Mingming will have the right to work and full free use of the NHS but no recourse to public funds.
    Read the information in this link thoroughly.
    http://nanninginfosite.editboard.com/t1885-uk-information-after-your-wife-arrives

    so if I send 3 wage slips, bank statements and mortgage statement that should be enough?

    or do you have to show a specific level of disposable income as well?

    I earn 18,500 per year and have a mortgage of about 400 per month with no other debts - just council tax and insurances to pay...

    that should be enough evidence that we dont need access to public funds shouldnt it?

    mingming will be moving in with me - and due to the location probably not continuing with her part time job and of course not paying rent on her house any more so surely including her documents just confuses the issue?

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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by Guest on 21/12/10, 08:18 pm

    Always remember your sponsor for your future wife to come and live permanently UK.

    So they need proof of your income you can submit your wage slips a P60 and your bank statements and the letter from your employer would go down well, from your employer stating income job security and time employment with him.

    You accommodation you will need a survey from your local estate agent not asking for the value of your house is accommodation suitable for your future wife they they want to know have you the facilities for sleeping cooking washing in other words bathroom kitchen bedroom, the reason for this so when you're wife is living with you she is not creating any overcrowding and she will not be asking the local council for accommodation.

    You can say your wife as just part-time job and she been making contributions to the household income. There is no fast rules about you having a minimum income


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    handyal
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by handyal on 21/12/10, 09:03 pm

    paulnottingham wrote:
    handyal wrote:Section 10 of the application form details all the documents you need.
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/partnersandfamilies/partners/husbandswivescivilpartners/applying-inside-uk/

    You have until mingmings student visa expires to apply for FLR.
    You have that period to prove through documentation you are living together as man and wife.

    Mingming will have the right to work and full free use of the NHS but no recourse to public funds.
    Read the information in this link thoroughly.
    http://nanninginfosite.editboard.com/t1885-uk-information-after-your-wife-arrives

    so if I send 3 wage slips, bank statements and mortgage statement that should be enough?

    or do you have to show a specific level of disposable income as well?

    I earn 18,500 per year and have a mortgage of about 400 per month with no other debts - just council tax and insurances to pay...

    that should be enough evidence that we dont need access to public funds shouldnt it?

    mingming will be moving in with me - and due to the location probably not continuing with her part time job and of course not paying rent on her house any more so surely including her documents just confuses the issue?

    Paul you have to prove much more than finances.
    You have to prove a continued relationship, living together as man and wife through documentation.
    Examples of acceptable items of correspondence

    letters or other documents from government departments or agencies, for example HM Revenue and Customs, Department for Work and Pensions, DVLA and TV Licensing
    letters or other documents from your GP, a hospital or other local health service about medical treatments, appointments, home visits or other medical matters

    bank statements/letters
    building society savings books/letters
    council tax bills or statements
    electricity and/or gas bills or statements
    water rates bills or statements
    mortgage statements/agreement
    tenancy agreement(s)
    telephone bills or statements

    You must read the links I have given you. There is no quick solution. Your are in my opinion jumping to far ahead of yourself and this will confuse you. Read the FLR form and the guidance notes first, then read the information we give you in our Summary section -After your wife arrives.

    It's a minimum 2 year process, sometimes longer before your wife can be granted ILR and all the -*/- ends.

    Does mingming have any qualifications in English language ? If not she will need to get one.

    paulnottingham
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 21/12/10, 09:52 pm

    handyal wrote:
    paulnottingham wrote:
    handyal wrote:Section 10 of the application form details all the documents you need.
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/partnersandfamilies/partners/husbandswivescivilpartners/applying-inside-uk/

    You have until mingmings student visa expires to apply for FLR.
    You have that period to prove through documentation you are living together as man and wife.

    Mingming will have the right to work and full free use of the NHS but no recourse to public funds.
    Read the information in this link thoroughly.
    http://nanninginfosite.editboard.com/t1885-uk-information-after-your-wife-arrives

    so if I send 3 wage slips, bank statements and mortgage statement that should be enough?

    or do you have to show a specific level of disposable income as well?

    I earn 18,500 per year and have a mortgage of about 400 per month with no other debts - just council tax and insurances to pay...

    that should be enough evidence that we dont need access to public funds shouldnt it?

    mingming will be moving in with me - and due to the location probably not continuing with her part time job and of course not paying rent on her house any more so surely including her documents just confuses the issue?

    Paul you have to prove much more than finances.
    You have to prove a continued relationship, living together as man and wife through documentation.
    Examples of acceptable items of correspondence

    letters or other documents from government departments or agencies, for example HM Revenue and Customs, Department for Work and Pensions, DVLA and TV Licensing
    letters or other documents from your GP, a hospital or other local health service about medical treatments, appointments, home visits or other medical matters

    bank statements/letters
    building society savings books/letters
    council tax bills or statements
    electricity and/or gas bills or statements
    water rates bills or statements
    mortgage statements/agreement
    tenancy agreement(s)
    telephone bills or statements

    You must read the links I have given you. There is no quick solution. Your are in my opinion jumping to far ahead of yourself and this will confuse you. Read the FLR form and the guidance notes first, then read the information we give you in our Summary section -After your wife arrives.

    It's a minimum 2 year process, sometimes longer before your wife can be granted ILR and all the -*/- ends.

    Does mingming have any qualifications in English language ? If not she will need to get one.

    yes mingming has the language qualification (its at a higher level than needed but that is fine (i checked with ukba)

    Also I explained to the ukba that we are not currently living together but will do so once we are married and I was told that would be fine.

    She can not attend her colledge from my house so will not be able to comply with the conditions of her spouse visa should she move in - and of course living together is a pre-requisite of the spouce visa.

    We were told we could apply to switch categories as soon as we were married

    We would need to present evidence of the marriage and proof that we would not need access to public funds plus ID. - thats what I was told today and I went hrough the sections of the flrm form on the phone with them

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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by Guest on 22/12/10, 07:31 am

    The majority of people who fail to obtain a settlement visa in UK or in your case transferring visas from student visa to FLR visa they fail to prove a relationship.

    Proving your accommodation is suitable and submitting your financial position that your future wife will not acquire any public funds usually straight forward.

    You after prove beyond doubt to the immigration officer that your girlfriend is not marrying you just for a visa don't expect the immigration officer is going to presume anything he will not I shall give you one example, a former member prove beyond doubt he went to China three times he was thinking this will prove a relationship and commitment, is visa was refused for his wife, why he only proved he went to China three times as the immigration officer pointed out he could have met three different women so it's extremely important to prove relationship don't take anything for granted if you do you will fail.

    You never mentioned how long you know your girlfriend if its few months you're in trouble especially when she been in this country for seven years and she cannot renew her student visa the immigration people are not stupid they will be thinking she marrying you for a visa to remain in United Kingdom so you have to prove beyond any doubt it's a guinea relationship fail to do this you will be refused.

    You need documentary evidence have you been communicating with e-mails, instant messages telephone receipts from a landline or mobile telephone receipts from restaurants photograph evidence you been together in UK any scrap of paper regardless how trivial you think it is will go towards proving a relationship the more the better including your trip to China and proof of marriage in China not just your wedding certificate as any fool can get one of these if he wishes.

    Let's look at bogus marriage they will be submitting a wedding certificate just like yourself and really nothing more in your case if you follow what I say you'll be submitting documentary proof this will include airline tickets, hotel receipts, wedding reception receipts, wedding photographs of yourself including your wife's family this will make your application stand out more far beyond what any bogus marriage can do, so you see how important it is.

    Have all your documents and receipts translated into English


    I cannot state how important this part of your application is do not ignore it or you will fail.




    paulnottingham
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 22/12/10, 09:06 am

    We have been seeing each other for a year - she has been staying over 2-3 nights a week when her timetable allows it and more out of term time

    we have lots of photos of us at my family events as well as other photos of us in / arround the house - as well as being able to provide our mobile phone records, emails and over the next month or so I will be getting ming ming added onto some household bills and she will change her bank address.

    Plus we were planning on submitting a timeline and statements + contact details for people in photos with us.

    We will make sure we show the photos from the wedding - as well as xmas cards and the like.

    The impression from talking with UKBA I got is that the fact that we have been living in the same country and seeing each other and can provide quite a lot of evidence seemed to be that we should be ok on that part...

    Of course everyones circumstances are different and I can appreciate the requirements on ukba to prove things but this should be one of the easier things for us to prove in our citcumstances. (well hopefully)...

    I think also the fact that she has currently about 10 months left on her most current 12 month visa (she has been in the uk for 6 years) is seen as a positive. (well again thats the impression i was given when talking with ukba)


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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by Guest on 22/12/10, 09:25 am

    Hi Paul.

    After what you just written I can say your application will be a success you have all the evidence and the time of been together so I cannot see any problems.

    Very soon you be successful in applying for your CNI my advice now is go to China enjoy yourself and don't worry about anything.

    Then on your return we shall help you in preparing your application for your wife's FLR visa.

    So may I take this opportunity in wishing you congratulations on your forthcoming marriage and good luck
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    handyal
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by handyal on 22/12/10, 04:21 pm

    paulnottingham wrote:
    Also I explained to the ukba that we are not currently living together but will do so once we are married and I was told that would be fine.

    She can not attend her colledge from my house so will not be able to comply with the conditions of her spouse visa should she move in - and of course living together is a pre-requisite of the spouce visa.

    We were told we could apply to switch categories as soon as we were married

    We would need to present evidence of the marriage and proof that we would not need access to public funds plus ID. - thats what I was told today and I went hrough the sections of the flrm form on the phone with them

    Are you saying you can't live together when married because of the location of her college ?
    As long as your address is her main address, living apart for studies should be acceptable.

    You can apply to switch categories as soon as you are married, BUT you can wait until her existing Visa is due to expire, AND this will give you sufficient time to get mingmings name on all your houshold bills.
    You need 6 forms of proof of address from the list.
    ( If your application fails because you did not send enough proof you are livng together as man and wife, your money is not refunded. You would have to reapply and pay the fee again.)

    Mingming becomes your Spouse but her Visa is known as a 'Settlement Visa'
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by Beijing2008 on 22/12/10, 04:34 pm

    Not knowing about laws in the UK a remark;
    couldn't it be better if her mainadress is at Pauls, and her visa changed into a settlement visa,as Paul's spouse.Or doesn't a different visa make any difference, with some allowances and Health Security f.e.
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by handyal on 22/12/10, 05:09 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:Not knowing about laws in the UK a remark;
    couldn't it be better if her mainadress is at Pauls, and her visa changed into a settlement visa,as Paul's spouse.Or doesn't a different visa make any difference, with some allowances and Health Security f.e.

    Her main address will be Pauls. Her current student visa will change categories into a 'settlement visa'.
    There is no 'spouse visa' it was just a term used by Paul.
    She will be applying for 'settlement' in the UK as the 'spouse' of a UK citizen would be the correct term.

    Yes different visas do have different conditions attached. As a student she can work limited hours, and only access to certain NHS treatment. When married and she changes her visa category she can work without restriction and has full access to our NHS system.
    She cannot claim any public funds though.
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by davidmckendrick on 22/12/10, 05:12 pm

    Hi Beijing,
    On a student visa the maximum she could work during term time is 20 hours a week but on a Settlement visa this is only limited by the EC Working Time Directive which I think is around 48 hours a week. However I think after being a student for 6 plus years it would be in her interests to complete her degree. I'm not sure of what is allowed on a student visa but full access to NHS healthcare is allowed on the Settlement visa.
    It sounds like the current arrangements where she lives near College but stays with Paul at weekends during term time and longer during College vacations should continue but change her permanent address on all correspondence to his home address including Council Tax and Bank account.
    I agree with Handyal that Mingming would be better to continue on the Student visa meantime until addresses and correspondence have been accumulated to give as evidence when applying to change to the FLR (Settlement spouse) visa.

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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 28/12/10, 07:51 pm

    we have a Joint council tax bill at my address,
    she has 3 different bank accounts in her name regiustered at my address
    1 joint bank account at my address
    2 credit cards in her name registered at my address
    gas bill in joint names - land line phone bill in joint names and her mobile phone bill registered at my address

    Surely that is enough paperwork?

    As for her studdies they are proffesional based accountancy exams and it would actually be of benefit to her studies to be able to work full time and be using the knowledge more regularly.

    She has been with the same employer for years and they would be happy to take her on full time.

    whilst that and part time studies is feasable living at mine to attempt to continue to studdy full time and work part time would not logistically work so she would probably have to leave a job she enjoys.

    furthermore the legal advice I have recieved was that our aplication would be looked on with signifigantly more suspicion if we were to maintain 2 addresses.

    Furthermore we can make an appointment to conduct the flrm in preson and get the decision the same day (in 95% of cases) - should we not do this in the 1st month or so after returning I dont think we could do this as there needs to be 6 months remaining on the visa to trabsfer status in country and as such she would have to leave the country, her studies and her job to make the application. - something we would rather avoid

    In conjunction to the afforementioned letters we can also provide photos of us with family and friends over the last year with statements, contact details and ID of the people in the photos - all of who are happy to confirm our relationship.

    by the time we make the application we will also have a second joint bank account we are currently setting up for savings and her wage slips will have been altered to my address as well. - plus if it arrives we will also have joint water and eletric bills as well - surely that is enough to present along with the wage slips, mortgage statements, ID and photos of us together?
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by davidmckendrick on 28/12/10, 10:48 pm

    Hi Paul, Sounds like you have everything well sorted!

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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 29/12/10, 12:22 pm

    Just spoke to UKBA and they said we did not have to provide ANY evidence of our relationship provided we were married...

    but we had to provide translated and notarised copies of the marriage certificate...

    very confucing as thats basically the exact opposite of other advice I have recieved!
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    MadGee
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by MadGee on 29/12/10, 01:02 pm

    Hi Paul,

    Did you get the name of this person?
    Seriously, ask them to clarify this in writing!
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    handyal
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by handyal on 29/12/10, 07:33 pm

    paulnottingham wrote:Just spoke to UKBA and they said we did not have to provide ANY evidence of our relationship provided we were married...

    but we had to provide translated and notarised copies of the marriage certificate...


    Jeeeeesus ! We've all been doing it the wrong way for the last 5 years. I knew we shouldn't have followed the instructions on the FLR form, what a waste of time that imformation was, all we had to do was ask the man from the UKBA.

    Mmmmmm! Was this the same man who lost the passport of David M's son when they applied for ILR, and then claimed he and his dept are not responsible, leaving David to fund the cost of a replacement passport. (Still in the hands of the Ombudsman.)

    Or was it the same UKBA man who issued David A's wife with the wrong Visa. Issuing her with a tourist Visa instead of a Fiancee Visa. Good job the keen eyed eagles of this forum spotted their error and told David how to complain and get the mistake rectified.
    His wife came within days of being evicted from the UK.

    Mabye it was the same UKBA man who refused our son his Settlement Visa even though his mother is married to a UK citizen and she is resident in the UK. The UKBA even turned down the Appeal. Now what did the UK Immigration Judge say about their decision, ah yes;
    'On the totality of the evidence before me I find that the Appellant has discharged the burden of proof, and reasons given by the UKBA do not justify the refusal. Therefore the UKBA decision to refuse the Visa is not in accordance with the law and the applicable Immigration Rules'.

    These examples of UKBA officials were all as useful as 'Chocolate Firegaurds'.

    Are you beginning to get the message Paul ?
    This forum is dedicated to helping others who seek advice on Marriage to a Chinese citizen, and how to correctly attain Visas.
    I told you in a previous post that the more people you ask, the more confused you will become.
    You spoke to a man on a general helpline number. They are not qualified Immigration Officers and they will not be dealing with your application. The UKBA deal with migrants from all over the world with different rules and conditions of entry for some nationalities. We specifically deal with those of Chinese nationality.

    Of course you can request the information by e-mail, and their return e-mail will not be specific but guide you to their site where the information is freely available. Their e-mail will always have the same signature 'UKBA'. It is a dept with no names -why? because they don't like to commit in case their wrong !

    We guide people through the procedure of application when they don't understand, or it isn't clear. I think it's fair to state that one or two ( more like 60) members have the experience to advise you.

    OK, you have the application form. Do you have, and have you read the Guidance Notes for completing the application ?
    Send ALL the documentation requested on the form, which you have already stated on your previous posts.
    Get an English translation of your marriage books either from the Registry office in Nanning or from an approved Translation office in Nanning and send both your marriage books and the translation with your other documents and the application form.

    You DO NOT have to get your marriage books or the translation notorised. Marriage in China to a Chinese citizen is legally recognised in the UK. Marriage documents from other Countries may have to be notorised, but not those from China.

    Paul, I am going through the same procedure in February.

    You choose who you want to be advised by, the men and wowen with no names, or those dedicated through this forum to helping others to unscramble the confusing minefield of bureaucatic form filling, and documentation.
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    Chris Seaborn
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 29/12/10, 09:16 pm

    Hi Paul, just recently we had a member who stated that he was married, so his wife was entitled to live here was what he he wrote, he gave very little evidence of their relationship....her visa was not granted. Just think about it, what a way to make money, marry a foreigner,for a fee, take her to the UK, let her loose, nick back to China for a quickie divorce and do the whole thing over again. Do you really think the UKBA would let that happen? Every visa applicant is scutinised as a possible scam artist, your lady, on a student visa and already in England will be very high on their list.

    However it all boils down to you, you have to make the desicion on whose advice you take, someone who doesn't give a stuff or people who care and want to see you happy?

    Chris.
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by luckysteve on 29/12/10, 09:27 pm

    Hi Paul and Mingming, I am pleased to meet yous Smile .
    Please can I say I have recently got married and applied for my Lao Po Visa and I might add was very successful because it took just a month and a day to be granted. I believe Li Li Visa was granted so quickly because I listened and took advice from these very kind and knowledgeable people and everything they said I took in and used to our advantage.
    People like Alan, Chris and Robert to name a few have more knowledge and experience with these matters than we will ever know. They live and breathe China and why because they try and Help others because they have all been there and got the T shirt. If you want help listen to them if not then may I respectfully request you do not waste their time. I appreciate you probably do not like me for saying that but I have a lot of respect for these Lads and it is Thanks to them that my wife is coming here next month. I owe these members a lot and without this forum I would have sadly failed on both counts my Visa application and my Marriage.
    I would like to wish you both a very Happy New Year 2011 and Best wishes for your Marriage and Visa Application.

    Steve and Li Li Very Happy Smile

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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 30/12/10, 08:58 am

    thanks for all your help guys...

    and I can only reitterate that the UKBA "help"line are very unhelpful... and I suspect very ill informed...


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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 30/12/10, 09:36 am

    Actually I can see why the UKBA man said that...

    section 10 stipulates the photos

    section 11A stipulates documents for all applicants which includes
    passport / travel docs (check)
    biometric permit (check)
    police registration certificate (this has now been updates to my address as well)(check)
    full birth certificate (with english translation)(check)
    payslips / bank statements / morthgage to show you can maintain yourself (check)
    English Language certificate (check)

    section 11B (SPOUCES and CIVIL Partners)
    marriage certificate (or civil partnership certificate)
    and if you have been married before then documents to show you were free to marry

    section 11c UNMARRIED AND SAME SEX PARTNERS or CIVIL PARTNER / SPOUSE who has completed 2 years leave to remain in THAT CATEGORY
    6 items of correspondence addressed to you over the 2 year period.


    As we are applying to change from the student category to the spouce category ir would seem that section 11C does not apply to us... however as we can show the documents we will include them as supporting documents when we attend our interview...

    however I guess this is where the confusion arrises as she has not been on the spouce visa previousley???
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    Chris Seaborn
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 30/12/10, 09:41 am

    Good on yer Paul. Forget that help line, receipe for disaster for sure. Paul, you can't collect too much evidence of your relationship, get as much as you can no matter how insignifcant you think it is. Swamp them with stuff. They will be highly suspicious of your young lady as many students will try and find ways of staying in the UK, or any western country for that matter, It is up to you to prove that the relationship is genuine. That you are married means very little to them. For starters, get letters from friends, anyone, who will say that they know you're in a loving relationship.

    Cheers,
    Chris.

    paulnottingham
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by paulnottingham on 30/12/10, 10:27 am

    Chris Seaborn wrote:Good on yer Paul. Forget that help line, receipe for disaster for sure. Paul, you can't collect too much evidence of your relationship, get as much as you can no matter how insignifcant you think it is. Swamp them with stuff. They will be highly suspicious of your young lady as many students will try and find ways of staying in the UK, or any western country for that matter, It is up to you to prove that the relationship is genuine. That you are married means very little to them. For starters, get letters from friends, anyone, who will say that they know you're in a loving relationship.

    Cheers,
    Chris.

    yes we are getting together photos of us with friends... getting scans of their passports - a statement and contact details... will include probably 10 or 20 of these as additional documentation...

    along with mobile phone records and email correspondence... plus details of the blessing ceremony we are planning in the UK

    plus even though it does not seem to directly apply i will also provide council tax bills, electric gas phone etc and joint bank accounts.

    I have been told the fact that she has such a long time on her existing visa and her studies are due to run for another couple of years should be looked upon favourably as well - ie its not as if they were about to ask her to leave anyway. - though as you say they view everything with suspicion... afterll i suppose it is their job?

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    handyal
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    Re: FLR (M)

    Post by handyal on 30/12/10, 12:04 pm

    Hi Paul,
    Prior to the English Language requirements which became effective on 29/11/2010 the forms were very clear and easy to follow.
    Since that date they have introduced new forms which are confusing. I think the helpline will also be suffering from the same confusion.
    At the moment I think you could ask the same question to 20 different advisors and get 6 different answers.
    You'll get the same answer everytime on this forum.

    If in any doubt supply everything. They only refuse Visas for lack of documentation or proof.
    Never before has a Visa been refused for supplying to much proof. If they don't need it, they return it.

    They do not give any refunds for refusal. You would have to reapply and repay the fee.
    Although you have not lived together for two years, showing bills in joint names will tell them you have been in a civil patnership before marriage. As Chris very correctly pointed out, they will be suspicious of a student changing to a Settlement Visa.
    They will be looking for any signs of a 'sham' marriage.
    (A typical sham marriage will have a lack of documents in both names).

    Throw the book and the hardcover at them. Don't allow them a reason to refuse.

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    Re: FLR (M)

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