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    Parental consent.

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    dontstopmovinbrad
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    Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 29/05/11, 11:45 pm

    Hi,

    I am well underway in arranging the marriage to my chinese partner but we have one major hurdle to jump!

    Bringing her son to Australia! because:

    His father unfortunately left my partner as soon as she became pregnant so 1) She has no clue to as to where he now is as it has now been over 7 years and 2) Her son and his father have never met.

    Given that it is a legal requirement for a non-immigrating parent to provide consent for their child to leave the country I requested information from the Australian Departmental office in Guangzhou.

    They expressed the above legality but in unusual circumstances such as this, a declaration of the situation can be made with as many supporting documents as possible but still does not provide a guarantee of granting a the son's visa.

    I am wondering if any-one has faced a similar situation that may be able to provide further information on what other actions if any that we may be able take?

    I'm anticipating some heavy work to get over this one!

    Kind Regards,
    Brad.
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    handyal
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by handyal on 30/05/11, 12:50 am

    Hi Brad,

    It's actually straightforward. Your partner should go to her local Peoples Court and get a Custody order for her son.

    She will explain to the court that the child's father abandoned her while she was pregnant and she has never seen him since nor knows of his whereabouts. She asks them for a Custody Order for her son, giving her sole gaurdianship.

    For the Visa application submit the 'Sole Parental Custody Order' (translated) with a covering letter of explanation.
    Total court costs are around 300RMB.

    If she takes the court order to a Notary Public they will produce a Notorised copy and an English translation, which, with the original court order will be enough for the Visa application.

    dontstopmovinbrad
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 30/05/11, 01:13 am

    Hi handyal,

    I will pass this onto my partner!
    There are so many answers to so many questions!

    I didn't quite answer your question about how I got my CNI(Certificate of No Record as it is here) As instructed by Wang Xiao Jing:
    Just got the above certificate from my local state office and together with my Stat. Declaration using the standard form from an offical Aust. Gov. website, took them to be notarized then certified at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Hobart then sent them off to the Chinese Consulate in Melbourne (who are impossible to contact I might add!) along with a certified copy of my passport data page and money order. Xiao jing said the most important thing to say in the stat. dec as far as wording is concerned is that "I am now single"

    Thanks again!
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    Chris Seaborn
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 30/05/11, 04:24 am

    Brad this is a tricky one. Australia, as you know, is very strict when it comes to children leaving their country to live here. The government needs to be satisfied that the child is coming here with the agreement of the parent staying behind.

    I had the 'same' problem, to a degree, our daughter had had no contact with her father, he didn't want to see her, and had never paid any child support. Under no circumstance would my wife have any contact with him let alone get him to sign a consent document saying Ting was free to leave. Ying was adamant that she would not contact him at all. Luckly, younger sister still had contact with the father's sister and she arranged to have the consent signed, being a bas t ard he wanted to refuse until it was pointed out he had paid no support and maybe now was the time it was 'organised', he signed at once!

    What I'm suggesting is that maybe your wife may know how he could be found, but wants no contact with the child's father at all. She may think it can be swept under the carpet and the child will be allowed to enter Australia. My wife couldn't understand that the Australian Government would not do this, and that Ting would be allowed into Australia. Is there any member of your wife's familiy, grandparents, siblings, that may know how to contact him? Getting a consent agreement signed is the only way to guarantee that the child will be allowed to enter this country.

    Failing that, go the court way, and get as much evidence that the father has not been able to be found.

    Chris.

    dontstopmovinbrad
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 30/05/11, 04:59 am

    Thanks Chris,

    I will discuss this with my partner. She will become my wife two weeks from today.

    Regards,
    Brad.

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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by davext on 30/05/11, 05:26 am

    Hi Brad i also had similar probs you will also have to have Federal police clearance as you are bringing a child in to Australia i forget the no of form . but it was a new ruling last year /i only found out about it from the Embassy interview in Guangzou as it was not on the checklist yet , it took a month to come through from Fed Police Davext

    dontstopmovinbrad
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 30/05/11, 05:29 am

    I have the form for that thanks Dave. Very Happy
    It's reassuring to know the Australian Government is so protective of our youth!

    Regards,
    Brad.
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    Chris Seaborn
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 30/05/11, 06:30 am

    Yes, but I can understand their reasons, I wouldn't want my ex to spirit my child out of the country of their birth without my consent. But, that doesn't help in genuine cases.

    It's not the Chinese government you have to convince, it's ours. If you get a Custody order get signed documents from the father's parents/siblings that the father cannot be found and that they have no objection for the child to leave China. You have to convince the Australian immigration dept that all is Kosher, get as much evidence as you can that you have tried to locate the father. A statement from the police that he is a missing person? One simple document, (apart from a signed consent) may not be enough to convince them that you have tried. Remember...MORE IS BETTER... when dealing with immigration.

    Chris.




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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 30/05/11, 06:39 am

    Great advice Chris! Thanks! I know where the local police station is so will start with them. I also know a number of my partner's family members including her parents which I will see next week. I expected a simple statement would be a little too easy.
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    Chris Seaborn
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 30/05/11, 07:59 am

    What's the cliché Brad...If something is easy to get then it's probably not worth having! I wish that weren't true! LOL. As many members will confirm, once your lovely wife is in Tassie with you, you'll say...'Yes! It was all worth it'.

    Try and impress on her, your wife to be, how important it is to get all the information regarding the father, and you'll have read in previous posts how it's also important to prove your relationship is genuine too. Collect everything that points to this, photo's of your travels together, with her family and son, train tickets, theatre tickets, hotel bills, wedding dinner costume hire ...everything to support your wife's visa application. Do everything right, provide all the information they require then give them more. Always tell the truth on the application documents.

    You live in a lovely spot Brad. I have a daughter in Hobart. I should imagine you'll be pretty rugged up now, It's freezing here in Wonthaggi. Strange thing, the ladies, who come from the Nanning region, seem to prefer the cold weather. There's no way I could get Ying to live in Queensland.

    Chris.

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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 30/05/11, 08:47 am

    I subscribe to the quote "Life wasn't meant to be easy, nor was it meant to be difficult"
    Like any-thing I know there are two sides. 1) Why should one human being have to proove their devotion to another to any kind of authority in what-ever form it may take? but 2) If we had no rules and regulations, we wouldn't survive very long! A life long learning curve in support of our evolution perhaps but as you suggested and I do my best to hold in thought: When they are here, it will all be worth it! I am anticipating no further need to deal with the Chinese Consulate how-ever being a big wide "Bass Straight" away from the nearest office! I did only recently relocate down from Queensland too! I have actually found a Migration Agent in Hobart who speaks cantonese that I anticipate engaging at the advice of a gentleman in Perth who did the same. For a fee of $1200.00 I feel it will relieve a fair degree of stress....not to mention time and effort trying to explain complicated situations to my partner. For the sake of stressing the importance of proof of all relating matters to her(my partner) I feel will be worth the expense alone! Definately holding on to what ever i can in regard to our activities together but to have the importance permeated by some-one such as your-self is priceless so thank-you.

    I will have to look on Google Earth where in the world you little part of the world is!
    Just when you think you know your own country another little un-known town slips in there!

    Freezing would be a fitting definition for us too but this is exactly why I deported myself from QLD Smile

    Cheers,
    Brad.
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Beijing2008 on 30/05/11, 09:28 am

    I can imagine, if the father is unknown, or denies responsability or fathership, when the baby is born, the mother automatically will get sole custody.
    That is what I understand from Chinese law.

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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 30/05/11, 09:50 am

    Hi Beijing2008,

    It is my understanding that Chinese law does not hold much ground in as far as satisfying the Australian Immigration Department although I do not really know why. I would be over the moon to be proven wrong.

    Regards,
    Brad.

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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by davext on 30/05/11, 10:11 am

    Hi Brad i think the Auatralian Goverment may have point documentaion in China is or can be , shall we say a little bit dodgy we have had phone calls while in China soliciting business eg dodgy driving licences, ,ID cards diplomas ect cash is king in China Wink Davext
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    Beijing2008
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Beijing2008 on 30/05/11, 11:19 am

    If the proof of sole custody is translated and legalised through the proper channels, with a certified copy of the source document,Australia should accept it.
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by handyal on 30/05/11, 11:32 am

    Generally, children who are Chinese nationals according to Chinese law are not permitted to depart China if one parent refuses to allow the travel requested or unless a Chinese Court has given Sole Custody to one parent.

    In China it's quite common for the Divorce courts to grant sole parental custody to the male parent if he has filed for custody. This was the case with Ling and her son, although Ling had always raised her son and the father had little or no contact.
    In China it often comes down to 'parental face' rather than 'parental responsibility'.
    We got a 'letter of consent' from his father but also insisted that he transfer sole custody to Ling, which he did with a little persuasion.

    Chasing or trying to find the father of this child could be a big mistake Brad. He had his reasons to abandon mother and child so you could open a can of worms. He may not want to be traced and his reactions could be negative to your cause. Let sleeping dogs lye.

    Don't pursue the father, persue the Court. As they were never married and the father has clearly abandoned mother and son she should automatically get 'sole parental custody'. This Chinese Court order is recognised as legally binding by other International countries just the same as your marriage in China is recognised.

    I raised 4 children in the UK and had 'sole parental custody'. I never had to seek permission from my ex wife to take my children to any foreign destinations. That's the power of 'sole custody'. One parent can make the decisions.

    What can you possible hope to gain from the absent father, except trouble ?

    I agree with Ton. The UK accepted Lings 'custody order' without question.
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Beijing2008 on 30/05/11, 12:14 pm

    dontstopmovinbrad wrote:Hi,

    I am well underway in arranging the marriage to my chinese partner but we have one major hurdle to jump!

    Bringing her son to Australia! because:

    His father unfortunately left my partner as soon as she became pregnant so 1) She has no clue to as to where he now is as it has now been over 7 years and 2) Her son and his father have never met.

    Given that it is a legal requirement for a non-immigrating parent to provide consent for their child to leave the country I requested information from the Australian Departmental office in Guangzhou.

    They expressed the above legality but in unusual circumstances such as this, a declaration of the situation can be made with as many supporting documents as possible but still does not provide a guarantee of granting a the son's visa.

    I am wondering if any-one has faced a similar situation that may be able to provide further information on what other actions if any that we may be able take?

    I'm anticipating some heavy work to get over this one!

    Kind Regards,
    Brad.
    I just read the child is 7, so there must be a custody on paper, since the child is going to school. And for that the parent[s] must sign.
    Formaly spoken, but it's China.... Basketball

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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 30/05/11, 08:42 pm

    Hi Al,

    I don't see how it should change things too much but my partner was married to the father so the divorce went through soon after he left and the divorce decree is in hand. Given it was he who left and the courts usually grant custody to the father, I can only at this point ascertain that it would have automatically gone to my partner anyway. We are still in the process of demolishing the communication barrier which obviously doesn't help but should this be the case surely all Immigration will have to do to grant the Visa is verify these facts with the court especially when the father abandoned his own son before he was even born over 7 years ago. It is well documented how strict Child Protection Laws are in Australia and for good reason but they must draw the line some-where!? Even with the communication barrier I am quite convinced my partner has no interest in tracking down the father! The Australian Departmental office in Guangzhou where the decision will obviously be made advised that we must in this case, provide a statement with as much supporting evidence that we get our hands on so together with court papers I think this will be the course we will take.
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by handyal on 30/05/11, 09:51 pm

    Hi Brad,
    The fact that she was married to his father is significant.
    You really need to ascertain who was given custody during the divorce proceedings.
    If the mother was given custody it's in your favour and a letter of consent from the father may be waived if his absence can be proved.
    If the father was given custody, then you could have a serious problem.

    In our case although we managed to get a letter of consent from Ze's father and Ling got legal custody of her son from the father in court his Visa application was still refused because the UKBA believed his father was still a responsible and dependant father.
    Our appeal was refused and we had to go to the Immigration Tribunal in the UK to win his case.
    You can read our experience here: http://nanninginfosite.editboard.com/t1647-visa-refused

    Australian and UK Immigration procedures are very similar in their requirements.
    Don't think because the mother is issued a Visa that the child will also be granted a Visa. Different criterias!

    He left her while she was pregant and the boy is now 7?
    The divorce went through soon after he left, and the divorce decree is in hand? scratch
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 31/05/11, 12:09 am

    Hi Brad, All good advice. Just remember Australia has been embarassed in the past over children being taken away from one parent or the other. We may have similar laws to the UK but the thinking is different.

    Ying totaly refused to have anything to do with her ex but, luckly, family intervened and we got the consent signed. We had no problem and our daughter was placed on her mum's visa. I would strongly advise to show Australian immigration that you have tried to locate him or his family for some form of consent. Notarised/translated statements from her family saying that all avenues have been exhausted etc, even better if from the father's family. Although vital, I wouldn't just rely on court documents. Alan is correct, the child is not automaticaly placed on his mother's visa, if she is granted one. If you fail to get the child's visa the first time, it will be quite a messy and expensive follow through.

    The stress on your lady will be far more if her son's visa fails, than trying for contact with the the ex's family now.

    Good luck,
    Chris.

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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 31/05/11, 12:54 am

    Hi Alan,

    Her ex left as soon as he discovered she was pregnant. Soon after this she filed for the divorce and has the divorce decree that was issued by the court. This all took place over 7 years ago before the son(Jimmy/Fang Tao) was born.

    By all indications to date she does have custody but I want/need to see the papers for myself(translated obviously)

    Chris, when I head back end of next week I plan to visit a police station to make some enquiries but what others measures do you suggest I might be able to take in atleast trying to obtain consent? According to my lady, last she heard he was not even in Guangxi.

    Cheers,
    Brad.
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by nigelld7 on 31/05/11, 03:07 am

    dontstopmovinbrad wrote:Hi Alan,

    Her ex left as soon as he discovered she was pregnant. Soon after this she filed for the divorce and has the divorce decree that was issued by the court. This all took place over 7 years ago before the son(Jimmy/Fang Tao) was born.

    By all indications to date she does have custody but I want/need to see the papers for myself(translated obviously)

    Chris, when I head back end of next week I plan to visit a police station to make some enquiries but what others measures do you suggest I might be able to take in atleast trying to obtain consent? According to my lady, last she heard he was not even in Guangxi.

    Cheers,
    Brad.


    Hi Brad,
    A belated welcome to the Forum from me.

    If I am understanding your posts, the 'absent' father left before the birth of the child
    and so the possibility is that he does not know if he has a son or daughter?

    All Chinese citizens are traceable through the ID card number and Hukou registration system.

    Whether your intended wishes to do this is another matter. As has been previously stated,
    it could open up another can of worms, for her and the 'absent' father, both with their
    'moving on', emotions and how she has had to endue a life with a son whose father 'disappeared'
    in a Chinese society which is not so understanding as in the Western society.
    He may wish, on learning he has a son, do a U-turn, and want to accept
    responsibly.

    Should you wish to trace the father through the ID/Hukou system then you may well find it is not
    up-to-date because most Chinese only update when they wish for a specific reason.
    Understanding the Chinese law, the ID registration system and the Hukou system is a complicated thing
    because it is unique to China. It works for China but is very hard for us Westerner's to comprehend.

    Should the permission for the child to leave China be granted, what is your intended's intentions
    if the child is refused entry by the Australian authorities?

    I wish you all the best with your endeavours,

    Regards,

    Nigel







    Last edited by nigelld7 on 31/05/11, 04:37 am; edited 1 time in total

    dontstopmovinbrad
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 31/05/11, 03:36 am

    Hi Nigel,

    Thank-you!

    What I understand from what my partner has told me is that the father is on the birth certificate. From this I would gather that he knows that he has a son but this is only an assumption. I feel the plan of action is to atleast show a definative effort to obtain consent albeit if we do not. Then if the visa is not granted to the son we will atleast have a realistic foot to stand on in defence as much as I wish to avoid the necessity. We do how-ever have the fathers' name. I have no idea if this would serve us in any way.

    Regards,
    Brad.
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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 31/05/11, 04:47 am

    Brad, He may be missing but is his family? If a document from his parents saying they have no idea where the father is, and that they have no objection of their grandson leaving the country would be a good start. A spanner in the works, (is what Nigel has suggested,)that they decide they want the grandson and object to him leaving China. Demanding payment for his 'keep' for the last 7+ years may be enough for a signature, it worked in our case.(For a daughter.) The can of worms to consider is...did the father know he was going to be one? And that it was a son? !!!! That the police have tried to locate him, (a case of checking for his ID number on their computer for instance,) and failed to locate him, and a document from them confirming this fact would prove that you have tried to locate him. Notarised statements from your wife's family describing the non existence of contact and support, (cash and parental) from the father,the circumstances of the father leaving before the birth with documents that support this, and that they have tried to locate him through his side of the family would also help. But you have to show you've tried.

    Couple all this with Court documents and you would have put up a strong case.

    Chris.


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    Re: Parental consent.

    Post by dontstopmovinbrad on 31/05/11, 05:20 am

    Nigel, I can't PM to reply just yet. I am in North West Tasmania. Arriving in Nanning next Friday week the 10th June for 10 days.

    Chris, My partner told me the son's fathers' name is on the birth certificate. Do you know if it has to be signed by both parents at all? If so then there is obviously no question the father is fully aware of the sons existence and of course that he is indeed a father. To my knowledge, the father left when he discovered the pregnancy.

    I have asked the question to my partner about the fathers' parents.

    Brad.

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