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    Injustice!

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    makem
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    Injustice!

    Post by makem on 05/06/11, 03:51 pm

    This is what they give our wives:



    This is what they need to travel in the EU:



    The only difference is the wording - the meaning is the same - they are a member of the family of an EEA National by virtue of being his/her spouse. They can both work.

    Because of that wording difference your wife must pay 50+, submit proof of marriage, finance, travel insurance and your finance, 3 months before a day trip to France.

    Is that justice? With every Tom, Dick and Harry in the world wanting to live in the UK, why would anybody in their right mind think your wife would abandon you and stay in the EU?

    As I write this I have just noticed that the Residence Card shown (copied from the Greek Embassy web site), is for a Russian individual. Since when have the Russians been in the EU?

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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 05/06/11, 04:07 pm

    makem wrote:As I write this I have just noticed that the Residence Card shown (copied from the Greek Embassy web site), is for a Russian individual. Since when have the Russians been in the EU?


    The Russian holder of the UK Residence Card is not an EU citizen. They are a family member of an EU Citizen.

    So why don't our UKBA stamp that wording when our family members come to the UK? Why do I always feel that UK Citizens are constantly discriminated against???

    David
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 05/06/11, 04:37 pm

    Hi Eric,
    You must remember that as a British citizen you are only considered an EEA national in countries outside the UK.

    A Chinese citizen gaining a settlement Visa to live in France with her French husband for example cannot enter the UK on that Visa. She must get a Family permit visa to enter the UK, just as your wife has to get a Schengen visa to enter Europe.

    The injustice is that the wife of an EEA national residing anywhere other than the UK, can travel virtually throughout Europe without the need for other visa's.
    The same injustice is felt by the Chinese wife of a Frenchman who cannot visit England, Scotland, Wales or N.Ireland without a Family permit.

    There are advantages to living in the Schengen area.

    It's one Immigration rule for Europe and another for the UK.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 05/06/11, 05:39 pm

    davidmckendrick wrote:
    makem wrote:As I write this I have just noticed that the Residence Card shown (copied from the Greek Embassy web site), is for a Russian individual. Since when have the Russians been in the EU?


    The Russian holder of the UK Residence Card is not an EU citizen. They are a family member of an EU Citizen.

    David

    Hi David,

    I was in fact pointing out that Russians are NOT members of the EU but this person who is Russian had been able to get a residence card. So one can assume the his/her spouse WAS a member of the EU and was exercising his/her right of travel.

    That is fine because, I read that if you are retired and self funding, with travel insurance you can be said to be 'exercising your right of travel' without the need to be working in the country.

    It would seem therefore that if I accompainied my wife and proved I was retired, self funding, had insurance and a return ticket, we could enter France without a Schengen Visa. On arrival they could gives us a 'short stay' permission.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely

    It says:

    the basic premise of the directive is very simple: EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance.[4] This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens.

    It costs 25 to 30 for a day trip to Calais by car and I am seriously considering choosing a nice day and trying it. We have the documents I mentioned and even if we get stopped and turned back in Calais it will still be a day out.

    In the UK the UKBA issue a Residence Card for periods of more than 3 months, I wonder what the equivalent document is for people travelling into the EU from the UK.

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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Graham on 06/06/11, 02:34 am

    makem wrote:

    It would seem therefore that if I accompainied my wife and proved I was retired, self funding, had insurance and a return ticket, we could enter France without a Schengen Visa. On arrival they could gives us a 'short stay' permission.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely

    It says:

    the basic premise of the directive is very simple: EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance.[4] This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens.

    It costs 25 to 30 for a day trip to Calais by car and I am seriously considering choosing a nice day and trying it. We have the documents I mentioned and even if we get stopped and turned back in Calais it will still be a day out.

    In the UK the UKBA issue a Residence Card for periods of more than 3 months, I wonder what the equivalent document is for people travelling into the EU from the UK.
    .
    My question,

    Do you have to be older than the retirement age in UK, to say you are retired.?

    What if I am not of retirement age, but no longer choose to work, and can prove to be self sufficient?
    Would that work?

    Graham Weifang sunny

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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 06/06/11, 07:35 am

    Graham wrote:
    .
    My question,

    Do you have to be older than the retirement age in UK, to say you are retired.?

    What if I am not of retirement age, but no longer choose to work, and can prove to be self sufficient?
    Would that work?

    Graham Weifang sunny


    I have a framed certificate from Essex Police which states that I was a good boy for 32 years when I left aged 54. I will take that, my current bus pass and my silver top.

    Your bank statements would shown no regular income and together with your P60 and a retirement or leaving letter, should be enough.

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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davext on 06/06/11, 10:01 am

    Hi Graham unless you have some type of Passive income set up long term / or several + million pounds in the bank where you could live on the interst , i think it would be quite difficult especially you being fairly young with quite a few years of fast living LOL Davext
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 06/06/11, 10:28 am

    makem wrote:
    My question,

    Do you have to be older than the retirement age in UK, to say you are retired.?

    What if I am not of retirement age, but no longer choose to work, and can prove to be self sufficient?
    Would that work?

    Graham Weifang sunny

    Your bank statements would shown no regular income and together with your P60 and a retirement or leaving letter, should be enough.

    When I retire in 5 weeks I will still have a regular income because my pension will go into the bank each month. My next P60 which I won't get until May next year will still have more than 3 months income on it from my current job. I've no idea whether I will even receive a "leaving letter". And I'm still only 60 so under the official UK retirement age.

    So how would I prove I was retired????


    David
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    makem
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 06/06/11, 01:40 pm

    davidmckendrick wrote:


    So how would I prove I was retired????


    David

    Sign on and then show your jobseekers paperwork?

    If you look old enough I think it would be enough to show sufficient funds.

    If not, ask them for a job and say you can start tomoz lol
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 06/06/11, 02:04 pm

    I'm not allowed to sign on for jobseekers because I have a works pension.

    I can take another job but can't claim any benefits for being unemployed as long as I have an income from my pension.

    David
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 06/06/11, 04:11 pm

    davidmckendrick wrote:


    So how would I prove I was retired????


    David

    Actually, you don't need to prove you are retired:

    To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen (us) needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights:

    working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time),
    working as a self-employed person,
    studying,
    being self-sufficient or retired.

    These rights are named after the Treaty of Rome, which defines the freedom of movement for workers. They have been extended over time, and are mainly of historical significance by now, since being self-sufficient has been added to the list. As long as a citizen has sufficient money or income not to rely on public funds and holds comprehensive health insurance, he/she exercises one or more treaty rights. If no treaty right is exercised, the right of free movement is limited to three months.

    The last part seems a bit stupid - if no treaty right ie. no job, not working, not studying, no money, no insurance, only three months stay!
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 06/06/11, 07:18 pm

    So, since our Nationwide accounts provide free European travel insurance and I have sufficient money in said Nationwide account to fund a trip around Europe, my wife who is accompanying me should not require a Schengen visa, just our marriage books and passports? And if anyone asks, I am exercising my treaty rights to free movement within the European Union!

    David
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 06/06/11, 08:04 pm

    Hi Eric,
    Read this page and the comments. It may explain the EC directive more clearly.
    http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

    You can only exercise your rights if living or working within another EEA country.
    You can only exercise that right to move within other member states but the UK is not a member state under the EEA Immigration regulations.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1003/regulation/2/made
    EEA national means a national of an EEA State;

    EEA State means
    (a) a member State, other than the United Kingdom;
    (b) Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein; or
    (c) Switzerland;
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 06/06/11, 08:21 pm

    http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/student/eea.php

    Am I an EEA national?

    You are a European Economic Area (EEA) national if you are a citizen or national of one of the following countries. If you have permanent residence in, but not citizenship of, any of these countries, you are not an EEA national.

    Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom.

    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/

    Am I an EEA national?

    You are a European Economic Area (EEA) national if you are a citizen or national of one of the following countries. If you have permanent residence in, but not citizenship of, any of these countries, you are not an EEA national.

    Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom.

    http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/ONESUFFOLK/Templates/tplInternetStandardPage.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fBirthsMarriagesAndDeaths%2fMarriages%2fMarriageInformationForNonEEANationals.htm&NRNODEGUID={883B86AF-1A86-48C0-8C4C-CEF75E295A06}&NRCACHEHINT=Guest#what

    Who is an EEA National?

    EEA nationals are passport holders of the following countries

    The United Kingdom (including the Irish Republic)
    Austria
    Belgium
    Bulgaria
    Czech Republic
    Cyprus
    Denmark
    Estonia
    Finland
    France
    Germany
    Greece
    Hungary
    Iceland
    Italy
    Latvia
    Liechtenstein
    Lithuania
    Luxembourg
    Malta
    Netherlands
    Norway
    Poland
    Portugal
    Romania
    Slovenia
    Slovak Republic
    Spain
    Sweden
    Switzerland

    All other passport holders are classed as Non- EEA Nationals.

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm

    Check out the last Country on the list at the bottom.

    Ok Alan now tell me again, we are not EEA Nationals?

    I am sure I can find many more examples.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 06/06/11, 08:39 pm

    Your an EEA national in any other Country other than the UK where you are a British citizen.

    Your non EU wife therefore needs a schengen visa to visit an EEA country because she is the wife of a British citizen not an EEA national as defined by the UK legislation on Immigration.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 06/06/11, 11:07 pm

    handyal wrote:Your an EEA national in any other Country other than the UK where you are a British citizen.

    Your non EU wife therefore needs a schengen visa to visit an EEA country because she is the wife of a British citizen not an EEA national as defined by the UK legislation on Immigration.

    So you say the UKBA are wrong when they say:

    You are a European Economic Area (EEA) national if you are a citizen or national of one of the following countries.

    The United Kingdom (including the Irish Republic) ?

    I am a national Of the UK am I not?

    Therefore according to the above I am also a European Economic Area (EEA) national.

    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/

    Just hover your mouse over the words 'European Economic Area (EEA)' at the top. Read what pops up.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 07/06/11, 01:31 am

    There seems to be a lot of discussion about this topic. Has anyone actually put any of it to the test? At least we'd know one way or the other. It does appear, to an outsider, that the UK has it's own rules within rules...or does it? Laughing

    Chris.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 07/06/11, 06:55 am

    Everyone is bound by the local Immigration laws where you permanently reside.

    As you reside in the UK you are foremost a British citizen but also an EEA citizen when travelling.

    Don't forget we are talking about our wives, who are mostly non EEA nationals and their right to travel.
    Free movement only exists within the EU countries who are party to the Schengen treaty - we are not party to that agreement.
    Our own legislation on this matter allows EEA nationals who do not reside in the UK to freely travel in the UK but their non EEA national wives need a Visa. i.e. Family Permit to enter the UK. Similarly we can enter an EU state that is party to the Schengen area but our wives need a Visa to enter that area. Once within the schengen area you can exercise your right to freely move within any of the member states.

    Take a Frenchman who brings his non EEA national wife to France from China on a Schengen Visa!
    They can freely travel within member states party to that agreement, but not other states, such as the UK. A seperate Visa is required to visit the UK.

    http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/
    Who is NOT covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 10:46 am

    The problem is not going from UK to EC MAINLAND; you have the right to move to any other EC EEA country for 3 months, AFTER 3 months you must register at Cityhall and Alien Police, to get a staying permit EC.
    For that you only have to proof you are;
    looking for a job
    have a job
    have income /pension or assets
    want to study.
    as an EC EEA citizen, AND FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT EC/EEA citizen, you have the same rights as the citizen of the country/memberstate you remain.But the first year , depending of public funds may cause a problem with your right to stay.

    The fact UK is not Schengen , I think causes more problems for the UK , than it has any advantages.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 07/06/11, 01:15 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:The problem is not going from UK to EC MAINLAND; you have the right to move to any other EC EEA country for 3 months, AFTER 3 months you must register at Cityhall and Alien Police, to get a staying permit EC.
    For that you only have to proof you are;
    looking for a job
    have a job
    have income /pension or assets
    want to study.
    as an EC EEA citizen, AND FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT EC/EEA citizen, you have the same rights as the citizen of the country/memberstate you remain.But the first year , depending of public funds may cause a problem with your right to stay.

    The fact UK is not Schengen , I think causes more problems for the UK , than it has any advantages.

    Ok, so you agree, it appears I may travel to France for a day trip with my wife, without her having a Schengen visa provided I satisfy the authorities that she will not be a burden on the French state, has medical insurance and I am retired and I want to spend a day in France?

    If not, do you think we could come to Holland for a day trip?
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 03:06 pm

    If she travels with you, you can, without any proof,within the first 3 months.So in fact you only need her passport and UK permit, you only need proof of Identity.But that is theoretical, since in most countries also own citizen need an ID or passport to be able to identify.
    Other way around , going to UK with a third country spouse is more difficult.Then you need an EEA family permit.Or when you have a transfer in the UK, she will need a transitvisa,which in fact is against EC regulation.It still is an Island..
    EC DIRECTIVE;
    Art 5;
    1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents
    applicable to national border controls, Member States shall
    grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid
    identity card or passport and shall grant family members who
    are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory
    with a valid passport.

    No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on
    Union citizens.
    2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State
    shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
    Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with
    national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
    the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt
    such family members from the visa requirement.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 07/06/11, 05:25 pm

    If Ton's wife, legally living in Holland, still had her Chinese nationality they could travel through the Schengen area using their passports or ID cards without the need for any other Visa. If they wanted to enter the UK, Ton's wife would need a 'Family permit' visa.

    The same doesn't work for the Chinese wife of a British citizen legally living in the UK because we are not a member state of the Schengen area. However a Schengen visa allows you the freedom to then move within any of the Schengen member states as if you were a resident of one of those states.

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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 07/06/11, 05:37 pm

    Enough of Devils Advocate.

    I have just applied via the TLScontact service for a schengen visa for my wife.

    The application is done online and it takes into account the settlement visa and ILR visa. It also asks if she is the wife of an EEA national and accepted me as such.

    There is a monster list of documents to submit, including translations of marriage certificate duly 'proved' by relevant embassies.

    The total cost which fluctuates according to the exchange rate, is 85 plus the cost of posting to them and supply of a return envolope. The charge includes 8 for return postage.

    I asked for a 3 day trip but when I found the cost decided not to go. I had read it was free for family members etc. Now I know it is not free for our wives.

    To justify that cost you would need to go for a month.

    I will be speaking to the service centre to confirm the cost and asking if the visa which is valid for 3 months would allow some day trips within the 3 month period after then main 1 month trip.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 06:25 pm

    Visa to Schengen, for your wife, living in UK, and having e staying permit , is NOT required., the info of TLS is on many points totally wrong. Mad


    Last edited by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 06:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 06:33 pm

    handyal wrote:If Ton's wife, legally living in Holland, still had her Chinese nationality they could travel through the Schengen area using their passports or ID cards without the need for any other Visa. If they wanted to enter the UK, Ton's wife would need a 'Family permit' visa.

    The same doesn't work for the Chinese wife of a British citizen legally living in the UK because we are not a member state of the Schengen area. However a Schengen visa allows you the freedom to then move within any of the Schengen member states as if you were a resident of one of those states.

    Why don't you read what I wrote about MEMBERSTATES OF THE EC/EEA . The Directive is about EC/EEA, NOT about SCHENGEN.
    TLS just want to make money...and don't now anything about European legislation.In the FAQ they answer a question of someone with a valid UK residence permit.who needs a visa for Schengen.
    BUT THAT IS SOMETHING ELSE, NO VISA FOR A FAMILYMEMBER OF AN EC citizen=UK citizen.
    I did quote the EC Directive, which means it applies to UK also.

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