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    Injustice!

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    handyal
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 07/06/11, 07:06 pm

    http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

    Who is NOT covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.


    We seem to go around in circles don't we Ton. Surely not all the sites can be wrong ?
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 07/06/11, 07:34 pm

    http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_2004_38_ec_en.pdf
    Union citizens and their family members!
    The personal scope of the Directive is quite wide and covers not only Union citizens but also their family members.
    Your family members, irrespective of their nationality, have the right to accompany or join you in a Member State other than that of
    your nationality.


    Rules for your family members
    Your family members, who are Union citizens themselves, are covered by the very same rules.
    Those family
    members who are not nationals of a Member State so-called third country family members may enter the host Member State with a valid passport. If they come from certain countries which are subject to visa obligation, they may be required to have an entry visa. Countries whose nationals are subject to visa are listed in Regulation (EC) No 539/2001, or under national law in the case of the United Kingdom and Ireland.

    Entry visas?
    Member States shall grant your third country family members every facility to obtain the necessary visas
    . Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure. Member States may not require family or residence visas for your family members but only entry visas.



    So as you can see, in certain circumstances and in certain countries, Visa's are required for your non EU wife.
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    handyal
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 07/06/11, 07:57 pm

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2001R0539:20050624:EN:PDF

    COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001
    Listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession of visas when crossing the external borders and those whose nationals are exempt from that requirement.

    HAS ADOPTED THIS REGULATION:
    Article 1
    1. Nationals of third countries on the list in Annex I shall be required to be in possession of a visa when crossing the external borders of the Member States.


    ANNEX I
    Common list referred to in Article 1(1)
    1. STATES
    Afghanistan
    Albania
    Algeria
    Angola
    Antigua and Barbuda
    Armenia
    Azerbaijan
    Bahamas
    Bahrain
    Bangladesh
    Barbados
    Belarus
    Belize
    Benin
    Bhutan
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Botswana
    Burkina Faso
    Burma/Myanmar
    Burundi
    Cambodia
    Cameroon
    Cape Verde
    Central African Republic
    Chad
    China
    Colombia
    Congo
    Cte d'Ivoire
    Cuba
    Democratic Republic of the Congo
    Djijbouti
    Dominica
    Dominican Republic
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    makem
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 07/06/11, 07:58 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:Visa to Schengen, for your wife, living in UK, and having e staying permit , is NOT required., the info of TLS is on many points totally wrong. Mad

    Our wives don't have a e staying permit. They have an entry visa valid for 27 months as the spouse of a UK citizen.

    Check out my first post which shows you the visa/permit in question.
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    Beijing2008
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 08:50 pm

    As it is useless to react on totally irrelevant quotes you make about visa for people from China, and you refuse to understand the Directive, I give up hope to bring some common understanding of EC legislation.
    Those quotes don't apply to familymembers, who accompany you to another memberstate. If you don't want to believe an expert, suit yourself.A family permit is enough to to travel freely into EC memberstates,when accompanied by an EC, so also an UK- spouse.
    My quote of the Directive says all you need to know, before leaving to the other memberstates.


    Last edited by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 09:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 07/06/11, 09:04 pm

    I have just received a reply from SOLVIT (Some may remember that about 9 months ago I asked them to query the fact that the French say our wives need a Schengen visa.)

    This is the content of their email:

    Good morning Mr Watson

    I appreciate that it has taken some time to obtain a response. I am referred to a Commission Communication, attached, explaining how the Directive should be implemented by Member States. Paragraph 2.2.1 explains that only residence cards issued under the Directive, issued to citizens who have previously exercised free movement rights, shall be exempted from the visa requirement. It therefore appears that the French decision that your wife would need a visa is in line with the Directive.

    Christine Korcz
    UK SOLVIT Centre
    Direct line: 020 7215 2833

    Paragrah 2.2.1 to which she refers states:

    2.2.1. Entry visas
    As provided in Article 5(2), Member States may require third country family members
    moving with or joining an EU citizen to whom the Directive applies to have an entry visa.
    Such family members have not only the right to enter the territory of the Member State, but
    also the right to obtain an entry visa18. This distinguishes them from other third country
    nationals, who have no such right.
    Third country family members should be issued as soon as possible and on the basis of an
    accelerated procedure with a free of charge short-term entry visa. By analogy with Article
    23 of the Visa Code19 the Commission considers that delays of more than four weeks are not
    reasonable. The authorities of the Member States should guide the family members as to the
    type of visa they should apply for, and they cannot require them to apply for long-term,
    residence or family reunification visas. Member States must grant such family members every
    facility to obtain the necessary visas. Member States may use premium call lines or services
    of an external company to set up an appointment but must offer the possibility of direct access
    to the consulate to third country family members.

    As the right to be issued with an entry visa is derived from the family link with the EU
    citizen, Member States may require only the presentation of a valid passport and evidence
    of the family link20
    (and also dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships,
    where applicable). No additional documents, such as a proof of accommodation, sufficient
    resources, an invitation letter or return ticket, can be required.


    This appears to be in line with the German embassy requirements ie. a free visa with minimum documents. I have underlined the parts that interest me.

    I have asked SOLVIT to look into the charges the French are asking and the large number of documents required.

    If anyone wants a copy of the Commission Communication which is in pdf form, I can email it.


    Last edited by makem on 07/06/11, 09:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    makem
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 07/06/11, 09:08 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:As it is useless to react on totally irrelevant quotes you make about visa for people from China, and you refuse to understand the Directive, I give up hope to bring some common umderstanding of EC legislation.
    Those quotes don't apply to familymembers, who accompany you to another memberstate. If you don't want to believe an expert, suit yourself.A family permit is enough to to travel freely into EC memberstates,when accompanied by an EC spouse.

    I think we must have crossed wires somehow.

    In this forum we only talk about people from China, don't we?

    I think by now we all understand the rules for people living in the EU, such as yourself. What we are concerned about is those living in the UK. Some members outside the UK but not in the EU may also be interested.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 07/06/11, 09:28 pm

    Solvit has proven to be a totally useless institute; either you did ask the wrong question, or they just give an answer, that is not according to the content of your question. I have dealt many times with Solvit, and I never received the right solution or answer.
    The circumstances she is talking about are about a 3rd country familymember , who wants to join or accompany a EC citizen.From a NON EC country. So it has nothing to do with a spouse who is already in the UK
    .It takes them months to answer a question, anyone can find on any decent immigration-forum.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 07/06/11, 10:36 pm

    This web page is the clearest information about 'Schengen' I have come across.

    http://www.euroskop.cz/8384/sekce/schengen-glossary/

    The reference to EU citizen mentioned in the SOLVIT reply is defined on that page as:

    EU CITIZEN - any person having the nationality of an EU Member State.

    There are 27 member states which include the UK

    Therefore, because our wives are in the UK they DO need visas, BUT the visas should be granted under the conditions mentioned in the SOLVIT reply.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 07/06/11, 11:20 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:Solvit has proven to be a totally useless institute; either you did ask the wrong question, or they just give an answer, that is not according to the content of your question. I have dealt many times with Solvit, and I never received the right solution or answer.
    The circumstances she is talking about are about a 3rd country familymember , who wants to join or accompany a EC citizen.From a NON EC country. So it has nothing to do with a spouse who is already in the UK
    .It takes them months to answer a question, anyone can find on any decent immigration-forum.

    SOLVIT is an intermediary and only responsible for forwarding your concerns to the relevant office. If that office takes a long time or gives and answer that you feel is incorrect then you cannot blame SOLVIT.

    IMHO
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    makem
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    EU National - confirmation of status

    Post by makem on 08/06/11, 10:24 am

    I have applied for a Schengen visa with the entry port of France.

    I had to do this vis the TLScontact system online.

    My fist attempt brought up a cost of 85. I telephone TLS asking if my wife was classed as an EU national. I said that I married my wife in China, I was a British citizen with a British passport. It was confirmed that she was.

    I was asked if we had a marriage certificate in English and was it certified by the Chinese Embassy. I told them that it was translated in China at the Local office representing the Embassy. The person went off to ask if that was in order.

    When he came back he said all was in order, except that I had applied for the wrong visa type. I had applied I thought, for the only visa available. However he guided me through step by step on their web page to the application for a Schengen visa for an EU national and helped me complete the application correctly.

    When complete it showed a charge of 0 for the visa and 28 plus 8 for the TLScontact service and courier return of the documents.

    It also showed what documents to send and these were basically passports, UK visa and marriage documents.

    Noticably the application was identical to the German one but much more convoluted and easy to get the wrong visa as the default is not for an EU national.

    TLScontact phone number: 0845 730 0118

    Web page: https://www.tlscontact.com/gb2fr/help.php#type_visas

    email: info@tlscontact.com
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    EU National - confirmation of status from German Embassy

    Post by makem on 08/06/11, 12:49 pm

    Content of email from German Embassy - sent on behalf of my wife to ask if she can get a free visa as an EU National:

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    If your husband holds a British passport, then he is an EU National and
    therefore you can apply as the spouse of an EU National. There will be
    no fee. Please visit the website for more information: www.london.diplo.de

    Regards,

    Visa Section
    German Embassy London


    noreply@info.auswaertiges-amt.de schrieb am 07.06.2011 19:29 Uhr:
    > Dies ist ein Formular der: london
    >
    > Anrede: Frau
    > Surname: Han
    > Forename(s): Ru Qing
    > Postal address : 32 XXXXX XXXXXXX
    > Postcode, town/city : XXX XXX, Chelmsford
    > Country : UK
    > Tel./Fax : +44 1245 XXX XXX
    > Email: han_xxxx@xxxxxx.co.uk
    > Your comments / query: I am Chinese, living with my British husband in the UK. My husband was born in the UK. Am I classed a the spouse of an EU National and therefore entitled to a free Schengen Visa?
    > Thank you
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 08/06/11, 04:38 pm

    makem wrote:
    Beijing2008 wrote:Solvit has proven to be a totally useless institute; either you did ask the wrong question, or they just give an answer, that is not according to the content of your question. I have dealt many times with Solvit, and I never received the right solution or answer.
    The circumstances she is talking about are about a 3rd country familymember , who wants to join or accompany a EC citizen.From a NON EC country. So it has nothing to do with a spouse who is already in the UK
    .It takes them months to answer a question, anyone can find on any decent immigration-forum.

    SOLVIT is an intermediary and only responsible for forwarding your concerns to the relevant office. If that office takes a long time or gives and answer that you feel is incorrect then you cannot blame SOLVIT.

    IMHO

    SOLVIT is an informal problem solving network in which EU Member States work together to solve, without legal proceedings, problems caused by the misapplication of Internal Market law by public authorities. There is a SOLVIT centre in every European Union Member State (as well as in Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein). SOLVIT Centres can help with handling complaints from both citizens and businesses. They are part of the national administration and are committed to providing real solutions to problems within ten weeksUsing SOLVIT is free of charge
    http://www.borderpeople.info/index/commute/browse/browse-detail.htm?objId=7086&theme=theme01&category=category02

    In UK part of Department of Business, in NL part of Ministry of Internal affairs. Their info they get from people who work for the Dutch Ministry, and appearently, not people who know the European legislation.

    They are committed to provide real solutions within TEN WEEKS.hahahahahaha

    I and many others did ask questions to Solvit, and didn't ever get an answer, or an answer to a question that wasn't asked...
    Dear sir, we are not able to solve your problem, since we don't have the power to force national government to follow our suggestions.

    It is an institute , just te help some civil servants to a job.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 08/06/11, 04:52 pm

    makem wrote:This web page is the clearest information about 'Schengen' I have come across.

    http://www.euroskop.cz/8384/sekce/schengen-glossary/

    The reference to EU citizen mentioned in the SOLVIT reply is defined on that page as:

    EU CITIZEN - any person having the nationality of an EU Member State.

    There are 27 member states which include the UK

    Therefore, because our wives are in the UK they DO need visas, BUT the visas should be granted under the conditions mentioned in the SOLVIT reply.

    Then you also read this on their site;
    PERSON ENJOYING THE COMMUNITY RIGHT OF FREE MOVEMENT - any person entitled to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. It means EU citizens and third-country nationals who are members of the family of an EU citizen exercising his or her right to free movement. This category also includes third-country nationals and their family members, whatever their nationality, who under agreements between the Community and its Member States, on the one hand, and those third countries, on the other hand, enjoy rights of free movement equivalent to those of EU citizens.

    In total, it includes citizens of 27 EU Members States together with those third countries which are Schengen Member States, or the EEC Member States (Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein) and Switzerland


    I REST MY CASE cheers cheers
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 08/06/11, 05:13 pm

    handyal wrote:http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

    Who is NOT covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.


    We seem to go around in circles don't we Ton. Surely not all the sites can be wrong ?

    yOU ARE REALLY GREAT IN QUOTING WRONG TEXT, SAME PAGE;
    Who is covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    Citizens of an EU or EEA member state who visit, live, study or work in a different member state
    The EU citizens direct family members, including their non-EU spouse and the spouses direct family members (such as children)
    Other family members who are beneficiaries, including common law partners, same sex partners, and dependent family members, members of the household, and sick family members
    Family members (as outlined above), where the EU citizen has worked in another member state and now wishes to return to their home country to work [Singh]
    [ THAT MEANS; you lived/worked stayed in France or othe EC memberstate, your 3rd country spouse joined you there, and you came vback to UK together; so practicing freedom of travel]
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 08/06/11, 06:16 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:
    handyal wrote:http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

    Who is NOT covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.


    We seem to go around in circles don't we Ton. Surely not all the sites can be wrong ?

    yOU ARE REALLY GREAT IN QUOTING WRONG TEXT, SAME PAGE;
    Who is covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?


    Tell me my man, why do you shout? Is it because you think we will understand you better? (the English do that)

    Alan chose that part of the information relevant to my query. It was unnecessary for him to quote the whole thing. Please bear in mind when we the English talk about the EU and other places, we speak with reference to the bearing things have for English people.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 08/06/11, 06:33 pm

    I quoted the right conditions;
    an UK citizen with a Chinese spouse, who wants to visit, work,retire, spend his money in other memberstate,and if the Chinese spouse has an UK permit to stay with her husband[other than a touristvisa], she doesn't need a visa for Schengen country, only passport, health/travelinsurance and UK staying permit[anything longer than 3 months]and proof of marriage.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 08/06/11, 07:31 pm

    Why do the French, German, Spanish or any other EU country insist our Chinese wives cannot enter their countries without a Visa then Ton.

    In fact the English Immigration officers wouldn't let your wife board a ferry without a Visa for your destination ?

    Have all the Immigration authorities got it wrong Ton.

    Believe me, it would make our lives a lot simpler if the procedures did follow your information.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 08/06/11, 08:18 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:I quoted the right conditions;
    an UK citizen with a Chinese spouse, who wants to visit, work,retire, spend his money in other memberstate,and if the Chinese spouse has an UK permit to stay with her husband[other than a touristvisa], she doesn't need a visa for Schengen country, only passport, health/travelinsurance and UK staying permit[anything longer than 3 months]and proof of marriage.

    If you look at my original post again you will see that our wives do not get a UK Permit!

    Only EU members get a UK Permit.

    Our wives get a Visa only - for the UK only.

    The wording on that visa does not comply with the requirements of the EU Directive which states that the wife must have a Residence Permit.

    Therefore as I have found (and I have exhaustively tried to prove otherwise) they need a Schengen
    Visa.

    Both the French and German embassies agree, I don't think even an expert such as yourself can still disagree?
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 01/07/11, 11:48 am

    makem wrote:
    davidmckendrick wrote:
    makem wrote:As I write this I have just noticed that the Residence Card shown (copied from the Greek Embassy web site), is for a Russian individual. Since when have the Russians been in the EU?


    The Russian holder of the UK Residence Card is not an EU citizen. They are a family member of an EU Citizen.

    David

    Hi David,

    I was in fact pointing out that Russians are NOT members of the EU but this person who is Russian had been able to get a residence card. So one can assume the his/her spouse WAS a member of the EU and was exercising his/her right of travel.

    That is fine because, I read that if you are retired and self funding, with travel insurance you can be said to be 'exercising your right of travel' without the need to be working in the country.

    It would seem therefore that if I accompainied my wife and proved I was retired, self funding, had insurance and a return ticket, we could enter France without a Schengen Visa. On arrival they could gives us a 'short stay' permission.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely

    It says:

    the basic premise of the directive is very simple: EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance.[4] This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens.

    It costs 25 to 30 for a day trip to Calais by car and I am seriously considering choosing a nice day and trying it. We have the documents I mentioned and even if we get stopped and turned back in Calais it will still be a day out.

    In the UK the UKBA issue a Residence Card for periods of more than 3 months, I wonder what the equivalent document is for people travelling into the EU from the UK.

    As long you have funds to stay ,even longer than 3 months, and either work, have a good time ,or enjoy retirement,you can stay in any EC country WITH your third country spouse, without a visa. After 3 months, [or if you intend to stay there indefinite,YOU COULD do it from the arrival] you register at Cityhal and alien police wil check you really stay at the given adress.You will need your marriage certificate, and proof of funds or labour.You can get a Healthinsurance in the country you stay, and have all rights their citizen have, only the first year you are not allowed to be depending on Social welfare funds.
    After a while you and your spouse get an EC Residence Card for 5 yrs.[within 5 months after registration and application for EC/EEA Residence card.]After 5 yrs you have the right to apply for indefinite remain.

    And you[meaning your family] are free to travel anywhere in the EC/EEA.
    After returning to your home country, your familymembers have the same rights you have, and will get an EC/EEA resident card.
    To make it more likeable; if you are trading with another EC country, and at least 20 pct of your income is generated from that trade; you have the same EC/EEA CITIZEN rights.AND your familymembers.It's like using freedom of movement, and now freedom of trade.Or study.Or do anything in other memberstate.

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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 01/07/11, 12:16 pm

    I wish somebody would try this to see whether it is true!


    David
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 01/07/11, 12:44 pm

    davidmckendrick wrote:I wish somebody would try this to see whether it is true!


    David

    At the risk of repeating myself:

    Your Chinese wife (Third Country) needs a Schengen Visa.

    Ignore any other advice.

    I have researched this from the point of view of a UK citizen with a Chinese wife (Third Country) and believe me, if she did not need a visa I would visit the EU tomorrow! I only live 2 hours from Dover and have made many booze/fag trips.
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    handyal
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 01/07/11, 03:34 pm

    Ton,
    You keep missing one vital piece of the puzzle. Here's a description of the Act.

    http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33152_en.htm



    European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States amending Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 and repealing Directives 64/221/EEC, 68/360/EEC, 72/194/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 75/34/EEC, 75/35/EEC, 90/364/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 93/96/EEC.



    Under Directive 2004/38/EC the UK is NOT a member state.

    Therefore it does not apply to non EU family members of a UK citizen.



    In the UK, Directive 2004/38/EC is transponded into the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.



    If the non EU wife of an EU citizen wishes to visit the UK she must get a 'Family Permit'.

    If the non EU wife of a UK citizen wishes to visit the EU she must get a 'Schengen Visa'.



    http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

    Who is covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • Citizens of an EU or EEA member state who visit, live, study or work in a different member state


    Who is NOT covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.


    Under the EEA Regulations 2006 the UK is not a member state and therefore our non EU wives need a Schengen Visa to enter another EU state. However once in one of those states we have the right of free movement within the other EU member states under directive 2004/38/EC.

    In other words Directive 2004/38/EC only applies to a non EU citizen married to a UK citizen once they have entered another EU state, but first they need a Visa to enter another EU state...........could it be any clearer than that!
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    handyal
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 01/07/11, 04:57 pm

    Let me explain it another easy way.

    There are 29 Orange orchards, all owned by different farmers.
    They have no boundaries between them, so the farmers agree that each owner and even their non European wives can travel and work freely amongst the orange orchards. They call this agreement 2004/38/EC.

    To establish the righful ownership of each Orange orchard though, they give each Orchard a name.
    Austria-Belgium-Bulgaria-Cyprus-Czech Republic-Denmark-Estonia-Finland-France-Germany-Greece-Hungary-Iceland-Italy
    Latvia-Liechtenstein-Lithuania-Luxembourg-Malta-The Netherlands-Norway-Poland-Portugal-Romania-Slovakia-Slovenia-Spain-Sweden-Switzerland.


    There are another 4 farmers who decide to grow Apple Orchards but they fence these orchards off from the Orange Orchards and name this fence the British Channel. Again to establish rightful ownership of each orchard they give each Orchard a name.
    England-Rep of Ireland-Scotland-Wales. Because they grow apples and not oranges they collectively call these areas the UK.
    Again the farmers agree that each apple orchard owner and their non UK wives can travel and work freely amongst the apple orchards. This agreement is known as the UK agreement.

    However farmers from the orange orchards want to visit the apple orchards and the farmers of the apple orchards would also like to visit the orange orchards. They make an agreement and call this the EEA Regs.
    Each farmer is given a pass to open the gate in the fence which they call a passport or ID card.

    The farmers wives though are a different story.
    Eventually the orange orchard farmers and the apple orchard farmers reach an agreement to issue the non European and non UK wives with a special pass to open the gate in the fence. They call this special pass a Visa or Permit.

    Now under the EEA regs, the orange farmers non European wives and the apple farmers non UK wives can use their pass to open the gate in the fence, with the stipulation they must be accompanied by their husband.

    Under the 2004/38/EC agreement once the wives of the apple orchard farmers have entered the orange orchards, they can travel and work freely amonst the orange orchards. Similarly the wives of the orange orchard farmers can enter the apple orchards and travel and work freely amongst the apple orchards.
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    davidmckendrick
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 01/07/11, 05:31 pm

    Thanks Alan,
    Very clearly explained!


    David

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