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    Injustice!

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    makem
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 01/07/11, 06:23 pm

    handyal wrote:Let me explain it another easy way.

    There are 29 Orange orchards, all owned by different farmers.
    They have no boundaries between them, so the farmers agree that each owner and even their non European wives can travel and work freely amongst the orange orchards. They call this agreement 2004/38/EC.

    To establish the righful ownership of each Orange orchard though, they give each Orchard a name.
    Austria-Belgium-Bulgaria-Cyprus-Czech Republic-Denmark-Estonia-Finland-France-Germany-Greece-Hungary-Iceland-Italy
    Latvia-Liechtenstein-Lithuania-Luxembourg-Malta-The Netherlands-Norway-Poland-Portugal-Romania-Slovakia-Slovenia-Spain-Sweden-Switzerland.


    There are another 4 farmers who decide to grow Apple Orchards but they fence these orchards off from the Orange Orchards and name this fence the British Channel. Again to establish rightful ownership of each orchard they give each Orchard a name.
    England-Rep of Ireland-Scotland-Wales. Because they grow apples and not oranges they collectively call these areas the UK.
    Again the farmers agree that each apple orchard owner and their non UK wives can travel and work freely amongst the apple orchards. This agreement is known as the UK agreement.

    However farmers from the orange orchards want to visit the apple orchards and the farmers of the apple orchards would also like to visit the orange orchards. They make an agreement and call this the EEA Regs.
    Each farmer is given a pass to open the gate in the fence which they call a passport or ID card.

    The farmers wives though are a different story.
    Eventually the orange orchard farmers and the apple orchard farmers reach an agreement to issue the non European and non UK wives with a special pass to open the gate in the fence. They call this special pass a Visa or Permit.

    Now under the EEA regs, the orange farmers non European wives and the apple farmers non UK wives can use their pass to open the gate in the fence, with the stipulation they must be accompanied by their husband.

    Under the 2004/38/EC agreement once the wives of the apple orchard farmers have entered the orange orchards, they can travel and work freely amonst the orange orchards. Similarly the wives of the orange orchard farmers can enter the apple orchards and travel and work freely amongst the apple orchards.

    Where did you find that Alan?
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    handyal
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 01/07/11, 09:37 pm

    I didn't find it anywhere, I made it up as it seemed a simpler way to explain how the EU/EEA Directives works.

    lol!
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by chinatyke on 02/07/11, 06:57 am

    handyal wrote:I didn't find it anywhere, I made it up as it seemed a simpler way to explain how the EU/EEA Directives works.

    lol!

    Well put Al, it could become a classic explanation used by the advocates for plain English and get the Crystal Mark.

    http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/

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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by luckysteve on 02/07/11, 10:45 am

    Hi Alan, Well done Mate Smile .

    Even I can understand that and I am thick as Dog Poo lol!

    I honestly believe you have missed your calling in Life.

    You would have made a FANTASTIC Teacher.

    Steve and Li Li Very Happy Smile .
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by slowheel on 02/07/11, 10:11 pm

    Yes but how come they are filling the place up with poppy and swamp bean farmers and there wives with little or no restriction ?

    slow.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 09:38 am

    An apple farmer decides to take the Channeltrain to France,and rent a house. His 3rd country wife applies for a entry visa, free of charge, at Orange country Embassy, since her husband is growing apples and oranges in Orande country France. The visa is granted.After her arrival,she registers at Cityhall, they live in Orange country for half a year and decide to go to the Apple farm. According to EC Directive, Apple country must allow Apple farmer and his wife to come to Apple country,since they both have an Orange country EC Residence Card.No extra visa is needed.Since they are citizen of the Apple Orange Union.And Apple farmers wife is allowed to live and work in Apple country and have all rights her husband has.

    http://www.easyexpat.com/forums/schengen-visa-for-third-country-family-member-t19058.html
    'by missy Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:08 pm

    Sueono :- what I have said is true - if you look on all EU Embassy websites it clearly states that. I have travelled to France, Italy, Norway, Germany, Netherlands and Malta with out a visa. As long as you travel with your husband / wife who is the EU National and you have your marriage certificate and that endorsment in your passport they will let you in. I got mine from the UK and have had no problems at all. Good Luck.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 11:32 am

    handyal wrote:Ton,
    You keep missing one vital piece of the puzzle. Here's a description of the Act.

    http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33152_en.htm



    European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States amending Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 and repealing Directives 64/221/EEC, 68/360/EEC, 72/194/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 75/34/EEC, 75/35/EEC, 90/364/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 93/96/EEC.



    Under Directive 2004/38/EC the UK is NOT a member state.

    Therefore it does not apply to non EU family members of a UK citizen.



    In the UK, Directive 2004/38/EC is transponded into the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.



    If the non EU wife of an EU citizen wishes to visit the UK she must get a 'Family Permit'.

    If the non EU wife of a UK citizen wishes to visit the EU she must get a 'Schengen Visa'.
    Only if she travels without the UK citizen,who didn't use his right of free movement



    http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

    Who is covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • Citizens of an EU or EEA member state who visit, live, study or work in a different member state
    VISIT, so that is clear, as an UK /EEA/EC citizen you are covered und EC Directive. That EC Directive about right of free movement doesn't apply to an citizen who doesn't travel to another EC country, is clear.

    Who is NOT covered by Directive 2004/38/EC?

    • If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.
    Yes , off course; If you want your spouse to come to UK or NL , and you didn't use right of free movemenet, she needs to aplly to National legislation, like Language test, and you need to apply to amount of income etc.
    If you DID use right of free movement/labour etc in other Memberstate, she only needs an Entry visa, free of charge.No language test etc.


    Under the EEA Regulations 2006 the UK is not a member state and therefore our non EU wives need a Schengen Visa to enter another EU state. However once in one of those states we have the right of free movement within the other EU member states under directive 2004/38/EC.Only under the rule I wrote above,an UK citizen is an EEA/EC citizen, and doesn't need a Schengen visa

    In other words Directive 2004/38/EC only applies to a non EU citizen married to a UK citizen once they have entered another EU state, but first they need a Visa to enter another EU state...........could it be any clearer than that!Wrong,They are free to travel into Schengen area,since they travel together,and by that use right of free movement

    Ec Memberstates;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union

    There is a difference between EC Memberstates and Schengen countries, and there you get of the road.


    CHAPTER II
    Right of exit and entry
    Article 4
    Right of exit
    1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls,
    all Union citizens with a valid identity card or passport and their family members who are not
    nationals of a Member State and who hold a valid passport shall have the right to leave the territory
    of a Member State to travel to another Member State.
    2. No exit visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on the persons to whom paragraph 1
    applies.
    3. Member States shall, acting in accordance with their laws, issue to their own nationals, and
    renew, an identity card or passport stating their nationality.
    4. The passport shall be valid at least for all Member States and for countries through which the
    holder must pass when travelling between Member States. Where the law of a Member State does
    not provide for identity cards to be issued, the period of validity of any passport on being issued or
    renewed shall be not less than five years.

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF


    Last edited by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 02:47 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 03/07/11, 12:39 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:

    http://www.easyexpat.com/forums/schengen-visa-for-third-country-family-member-t19058.html
    'by missy Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:08 pm

    Sueono :- what I have said is true - if you look on all EU Embassy websites it clearly states that. I have travelled to France, Italy, Norway, Germany, Netherlands and Malta with out a visa. As long as you travel with your husband / wife who is the EU National and you have your marriage certificate and that endorsment in your passport they will let you in. I got mine from the UK and have had no problems at all. Good Luck.
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    Hi Ton,
    Unfortunately wives coming from third world countries to the UK do not get the correct endorsement in their passports which is why they need to get a Schengen visa stamped in their passport!!!!!


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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 01:04 pm

    Dvid, what kind of Endorsement do they get ?
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 01:41 pm

    Freedom of movement of people

    The free movement of people means EU citizens can move freely between member states to live, work, study or retire in another country. This required the lowering of administrative formalities and more recognition of professional qualifications of other states.[19] Fostering the free movement of people has been a major goal of European integration since the 1950s.[20]
    Broadly defined, this freedom enables citizens of one Member State to travel to another, to reside and to work there (permanently or temporarily). The idea behind EU legislation in this field is that citizens from other member states should be treated equally with domestic ones they should not be discriminated against.
    The main provision of the freedom of movement of persons is Article 45 of the TFEU that prohibits restrictions on the basis of nationality.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_(European_Union)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 03/07/11, 01:50 pm

    The endorsement that says that they are the spouse of an EEA Citizen.


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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 02:08 pm

    So with that you don't need Schengen visa. Very Happy
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 03/07/11, 02:32 pm

    Settlement visas for spouses of UK Citizens do not state that the holder is the spouse of an EEA Citizen. Therefore they need to get a Schengen visa if they wish to visit Europe. Holding a marriage certificate and being married to an EEA citizen does not provide the endorsement, however it appears that in most EEA countries the settlement visa does have this endorsement stating that the holder is the spouse of an EEA citizen.


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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 03:29 pm

    I meant , what is on the permit your wife, living with you in the UK , did get.Travelling with you she anyhow doesn't need a Schengen visa.


    Last edited by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 03:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 03/07/11, 03:39 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:I menat , what is on the permit your wife, living with you in the UK , did get.Travelling with you she anyhow doesn't need a Schengen visa.

    Rubbish!

    Man, how many times must we repeat "the wording in the visa must be EXACTLY as shown in my very first post in this thread".
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 03:59 pm

    UK
    Main article: EEA Regulations (UK)
    In the UK, the directive is transposed into the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006[14] amended by SI 2009/1117[15] and amended by SI 2011/1247[16]. The implementation is reasonably complete and accurate although non-EEA family members require an entrance clearance (called EEA Family Permit) to enter the UK even if they are in possession of a 5-year residence card of another EEA member state, in breach of the Directive[17][18][19]. The UK law recognises same-sex relationships, and it also has a clause for unmarried/unregistered partners. Applications are free of charge.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely==
    Does a residence card from one state serve as a visa for another? Again the text of the directive implies this, but it is not made explicit. Within the area of the Schengen Agreement this is not an issue, but the UK does not recognise cards issued by other member states.==
    So UK is acting against EC Directive
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by MadGee on 03/07/11, 04:49 pm

    Hi Guys,

    This thread seems to be, understandably, going round in circles so I done some hunting on specialist immigration and visa websites / forums.
    My findings are as follows:

    There is a European directive that states a non-European citizen married to a UK citizen can exercise their right of travel within the EU without the need of a Schengen visa but you must exercise this right at the border controls which could cause delays and (in most reported cases) refusal of entry.

    Apparently it only works at St Pancreas station (euro-tunnel) and Dover (ferry) where there are French border controls! Even so, there is still confusion with officials because they dont like people doing this and will delay travellers as much as possible with demands for petty assurances. This allows entry to France but its been widely reported that entry into following EU countries is widely refused without a Schengen visa or family permit, directive or no directive, typical Euro policy inefficiency. Most airlines will refuse a Chinese passport holder who hasn't got a Schengen Visa.

    So basically, if you want to go travelling in Europe with your Chinese wife:

    Wait until she has got a UK passport (thats if she wants one)
    Spend your holiday arguing at every border control and risk refusal.
    Pay the money and get a family permit (yes she can apply for one)
    Or simply get a free Schengen Visa from your friendly French Embassy (first port of entry for most) and have trouble free travel around Europe.
    Now how hard is that?
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 05:07 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:I meant , what is on the permit your wife, living with you in the UK , did get.Travelling with you she anyhow doesn't need a Schengen visa.
    How long is her visa valid.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 05:48 pm

    MadGee wrote:Hi Guys,

    This thread seems to be, understandably, going round in circles so I done some hunting on specialist immigration and visa websites / forums.
    My findings are as follows:

    There is a European directive that states a non-European citizen married to a UK citizen can exercise their right of travel within the EU without the need of a Schengen visa but you must exercise this right at the border controls which could cause delays and (in most reported cases) refusal of entry.

    Apparently it only works at St Pancreas station (euro-tunnel) and Dover (ferry) where there are French border controls! Even so, there is still confusion with officials because they dont like people doing this and will delay travellers as much as possible with demands for petty assurances. This allows entry to France but its been widely reported that entry into following EU countries is widely refused without a Schengen visa or family permit, directive or no directive, typical Euro policy inefficiency. Most airlines will refuse a Chinese passport holder who hasn't got a Schengen Visa. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2002:233:0003:0003:EN:PDF
    So basically, if you want to go travelling in Europe with your Chinese wife:

    Wait until she has got a UK passport (thats if she wants one)
    Spend your holiday arguing at every border control and risk refusal.
    Pay the money and get a family permit (yes she can apply for one)
    Or simply get a free Schengen Visa from your friendly French Embassy (first port of entry for most) and have trouble free travel around Europe.
    Now how hard is that?

    http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

    THIS SAYS ALL YOU NEED....
    cheers
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 03/07/11, 06:06 pm

    Hi Ton,
    The UK is not acting against the EC directive. We are not a member of the Schengen Treaty.
    Under the EEA Regs the UK is not a member state because our Border Controls are in force.

    Those countries who are members to the Schengen Treaty have abolished border checks/controls which allows a common Visa to visit all participating countries (referred to as member states).

    The EC directive is an agreement allowing free movement within the member states.
    Not all member states are members of the EU. Not all EU states are members to the agreement.

    For those from a 3rd world country who come to the UK, they are issued with a Visa to enter the UK only.
    My wife holds a Chinese passport with a Visa for entry clearance to the UK. It is multi entry which means she can leave and re-enter the UK using the same Visa. The reason for her entry is because she is the spouse of a UK citizen.

    My passport is a UK passport (the UK is part of the EU). It states I am a British citizen (no mention of EEA) so as the holder of a UK passport I can travel between the EU states using my passport.
    My wife however holds a Chinese passport with a Visa to enter the UK only.
    To enter other EU or Schengen states she must first get a Visa to enter these areas. (Schengen Visa)
    ONCE she has this Visa and enters another state accompanied by me, then we can exercise our right of free movement under the EC directive and travel to ALL the member states.

    You actually posted a perfect example of how the system works.
    Quote:
    http://www.easyexpat.com/forums/schengen-visa-for-third-country-family-member-t19058.html
    'by missy Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:08 pm

    Sueono :- what I have said is true - if you look on all EU Embassy websites it clearly states that. I have travelled to France, Italy, Norway, Germany, Netherlands and Malta with out a visa. As long as you travel with your husband / wife who is the EU National and you have your marriage certificate and that endorsment in your passport they will let you in. I got mine from the UK and have had no problems at all. Good Luck.
    missy
    Newbie [NOTE Ton; she is a 3rd country national]


    Missy is already in the UK and must have a Visa to be here. She cannot exercise her right to travel to Europe under the EC directive because she has to cross border checks/controls to enter Europe. She must apply for a 'Schengen Visa' (which is the topic of her post). Once she enters Europe she can exercise her rights under the EC directive to travel within the member states on just one Visa.
    She already has a Visa for the UK so can re-enter no problem.

    If your wife was still a Chinese citizen Ton, because you live within the Schengen area, your wife could travel freely between the other member states without the need for another Visa by exercising her rights under the EC directive.
    However if she wanted to come to the UK then she would need another Visa. She cannot exercise her rights under the EC directive to enter the UK because we are not a member state and we do have border controls. She would need a 'Family permit' to enter the UK. (The UK is England, Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland).

    If we didn't have Border controls and the EC directive applied to the UK then we would be swamped with 3rd world migrants claiming asylum.

    France, Italy and Denmark have already threatened to abstain from the Schengen Treaty, which is their legal right, due to possible floods of immigrants. On May 12th 2011, a majority of 15 out of 27 EU countries voted to restore internal border checks and passport controls or at least tighten them temporarily.

    That could be the end of the EC directive. The EC directive is not EU law, it is only an agreement between the member states.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by handyal on 03/07/11, 06:29 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:
    Beijing2008 wrote:I meant , what is on the permit your wife, living with you in the UK , did get.Travelling with you she anyhow doesn't need a Schengen visa.
    How long is her visa valid.

    Hi Ton,
    A Chinese wife is issued with a 'settlement visa' for the UK which is only a temporary visa valid for 27 months.
    In other words it is a temporary visa to residence in the UK as the spouse of a UK citizen.

    At the end of this period you must apply to either extend the Visa for another 2 years (known as FLR) in which case you must provide an approved certificate to show your English language level is at or above A1 under the European framework. OR
    You can apply for a permanent Visa (known as ILR) in which case you must provide an approved ESOL certificate from an approved college showing her English language has improved at least one level above the level she was assessed at.

    Permanent isn't actually 'permanent' though! If she leaves the UK for more than 2 years then she loses all rights to residency and you have to start the procedure all over again. The UK Immigration system is quite complex.

    A third option is take a test known as the 'Life in the UK' test.
    If you want to get British citizenship and hold a UK passport then this test is the only way to get it.
    You are not forced to take British citizenship if you pass this test, and passing this test also allows you to apply for ILR.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by Beijing2008 on 03/07/11, 08:44 pm

    Alan, I think we agree about our disagreement of UK being member of the EEA/EC. But in the links I provided, and on the map I sent, UK really is an EEA/EC member.And since freedom of citizen of those states , to travel within memberstates, is a basic right. UK is not a Schengen country, but that doesn't restrain the rights of UK citizen andtheir 3rd country spouses, who travel together.
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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by davidmckendrick on 03/07/11, 09:30 pm

    Beijing2008 wrote:Alan, I think we agree about our disagreement of UK being member of the EEA/EC. But in the links I provided, and on the map I sent, UK really is an EEA/EC member.And since freedom of citizen of those states , to travel within memberstates, is a basic right. UK is not a Schengen country, but that doesn't restrain the rights of UK citizen andtheir 3rd country spouses, who travel together.

    Ton,
    You are not listening.....


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    Re: Injustice!

    Post by makem on 03/07/11, 09:33 pm

    MadGee wrote:Hi Guys,
    Apparently it only works at St Pancreas station (euro-tunnel) and Dover (ferry) where there are French border controls! Even so, there is still confusion with officials because they dont like people doing this and will delay travellers as much as possible with demands for petty assurances.

    I agree with the circles - I said I would try that entry method about 20 posts ago!

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    Re: Injustice!

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