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    Bride Price

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    Robert
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by Robert on 22/05/12, 10:05 am

    Hi Ryan,

    You're already decided to pay the 20,000 before you ever join this forum asking for members opinion I don't think any other member has pay such high price for their wife dowry on this forum, But if it keeps the peace between your wife and her mother then pay it.

    But remember majority of marriages fall apart because of financial problems regardless of your wife culture, Chinese women are more obsessed with money then most other cultures, members on this forum when their marriages have collapse has always been about their wife financial demands ironically appear to be members who are financially independent.

    I would make it absolutely clear to your future wife what your financial commitments will be to her family after your marriage and give her no illusion that you will pay for everything within the her family regardless how rich you are this will save you any future arguments

    What disturbs me the family are not dirt-poor you say the father as a concrete business why didn't the family take care of grandfather when he was injured instead they left you to take care of him and you're not a member of the family yet.

    Take care be careful



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    wanneroo
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by wanneroo on 22/05/12, 10:32 am

    Very good comments Robert with a lot of home truths.I would have thought Ryan would have done his homework with the Chinese culture he said he has done a lot of travel under his belt The music plays a different tune sometimes and we have to learn to dance to it, emotions can get in the way, I hope he solves the issues with the Dragon Mother What we all do in the name of love I too have been guilty of letting my heart rule in the past I havent been in Ryans situation Iam in Australia with my wife Mary, however Chinese family devotion and money are the way it is, you have to make some rules about where you as a western person is coming from, We too have a culture which needs to be respected Having loads of disposable cash is not the way to satisfy some persons greed , there has to be a balance,if its all too hard just walk away from all the compications that may occur now and in the future. its not an easy path but Ryan is 31 years of age, young Iam 69, I have had to learn a few lessons we never stop learning things,I too made a lot of errors along the way,

    But remember majority of marriages fall apart because of financial problems regardless of your wife culture, Chinese women are more obsessed with money then most other cultures, members on this forum when their marriages have collapse has always been about their financial demands ironically appear to be members who are financially independent.

    I would make it absolutely clear to your future wife what your financial commitments will be to her family after your marriage and give her no illusion that you will pay for everything within the her family regardless how rich you are this will save you any future arguments

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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by GBA on 22/05/12, 06:31 pm

    Hi Ryan. A belated welcome to the forum.

    I have read all the posts on here and wondered if I should chip in my bit!. I am not yet married however all things being equal I will be so in July.

    The topic "dowry" clearly causes a varied response. I too like some others on here share your thoughts on the dowry payment. I refuse point blank to make any direct sort of payment. This cost me a previous relationship and as that person and her mother were so unmoving from their demands, leaving no room for negotiation, I was simple forced to walk away.

    The issue of the dowry was again raised this time around, and in fact was raised by me. Lian has an elder sister and a younger brother. Her Mom lives with the brother and his wife and kid. As such he pays for a roof over her head and the sisters collectively pay a bit towards her clothing, food and what have you.

    Lian left home at an early age and unlike your girlfriend is not that close to her Mom. That said she does send her Mom a bit of money now and again. And chats to her every few weeks.

    After discussing the dowry bit with Lian we BOTH came up with a plan. After Lian comes to the UK it will more than likely be a while before she starts working. As such "we" will continue to make this small allowance to her Mom every few months. Clearly I will have to fund that.

    If and when Lian starts working, besides contributing towards our own household, she will then take over the payments to her Mom.

    So in effect although I / we will be making the odd payment now and again I will not be paying any lump sum. Lian does not want a big wedding party and this will more than likely consist of close friends and family, of which there seem many. I am more than willing to pay for the wedding party - such that it will be. I don't expect there to be many if any red envelopes. If there are Lian will take care of that and decide what to do with it.

    Now here is the kicker. If for some reason or another Lian pushes off ( wants a divorce - does a runner - call it what you will), obviously any payment to her Mom will, at least from my side, cease. That way I would have avoided "wasting" the lump sum payment which in the event of a divorce or similar, I have never heard of being repaid.

    If Lian's Mom got sick and needed expensive medical treatment or something, I would like to think that we would be able to discuss that and find a workable solution. Much the same as my own parents.

    Every couple needs to decide for themselves what is best in any given situation. Purely from a personal point of view I could care less if I am accepted by Lian's family (Mother, brother, sister the loads of cousins) or not. I hope I am, if not, life goes on but I would not like to think that I would come between Lian and her family. Whilst I will for the most respect others views, customs etc, even if I do not understand them, the least I expect in return is a similar view from them.

    Collectively the guys on here have shit loads of experience and, we - myself included - can do a lot worse than take on board the various comments - whether you or I agree with them or not.

    Only one our heads has a brain (the other just thinks it has Laughing ) use the one with the brain and I am sure you will be OK.

    By the way the best of luck with your g/f and perhaps even more luck with the dragon lady

    GBA








    1234mil17
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by 1234mil17 on 22/05/12, 10:41 pm

    Hi being a newbie i am finding these posts quite intersting they appear to confirm my thinking that the Chinese people seeme to be obsessed with getting money from their future husbands one way or another whether it be dowerys/ sending money back to family/ getting visas so as to be able to work for more money to be sent back to China /pushing husbands to buy houses .several of my friends tell me that during the so called courtship nothing of these situations were ever discussed ,so i am now thinking it might be an idea to talk to the potential wife, what is expected financially from them although it may sound like a business transaction it seems to me that is how the future wives treat it , just a thought MIL
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    kaifeng1
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by kaifeng1 on 23/05/12, 03:06 am

    hey fellas. Cheers for all the replies.

    I like the view of paying for the wedding in China myself and giving the old girl all the wedding money we receive from guests. I think this should be enough. I am still against paying any sort of price to buy Zhen. I like the idea of telling the family (i think chris suggested this) that when in Australia its now my culture, so her family has to pay for a wedding....and see how that goes down. If they cant see anything from my point of view than it just shows they are completely unreasonable and it will push me away from wanting any more to do with them. The biggest issue out of all of this is of course no matter how bad the mother and the aunties treats Zhen (countless nights of tears) she still goes running straight back to her mother 2 days later. It just bugs me that the children are so brainwashed and im sure they possess some psychological problem that allows them to hate and cry and never want anything to do with someone one day and then 2 days later go home bearing gifts. So many times she has said to me she is finished with her mother only for her to go back to the village that weekend "Shes my mother Ryan" is always the response i get when i query this.

    1234mil17 said "during the so called courtship nothing of these situations were ever discussed". Well it was the same for me. I never had any issues during our dating period and never heard of such customs until fairly recently. Zhen never mentioned anything to me and all this bride price stuff is just a few months old in my mind. To be honest if i knew all this stuff beforehand maybe i would have never gotten involved with a Chinese girl, but my situation was just like in the west when finding a girlfriend. There was no dating agencies or internet involved. I simply met a girl in my everyday life and asked her to go out for dinner, and it went from there. i had not prepared myself for this culture like i could have if i was looking for a bride on the net or through an agency i could have researched things more.

    I popped the question to Zhen last month, put the ring on the finger and she said yes. So in my eyes we are already engaged. In the families eyes, no negotiations or payments have taken place so we are not engaged. Zhens mother rings her every morning to ask when we will get engaged after all we have been together for 2 years now, we should have already been married and had our first child. Zhens mother is losing face in her village because her daughter is so bad to have been with a man for so long and not married already. Infuriates me to no end!

    Next month i will have an engagement party just like we do in the West. I also will pay for this. All final negotiations will have taken place in the next few weeks. ill keep you all posted with what transpires.


    Cheers

    Ryan
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by MadGee on 23/05/12, 03:53 am

    Hi Ryan,

    It's not hard to understand the culture but it is hard to learn to accept it! To be able to compromise, on both sides, is the best way forward. Family ties run very deep in the majority of Chinese families, especially village folk and parents dominate their children for a variety of reasons, one being the kids are their lifeline for care in old age, it is the siblings duty by law.

    Best of luck and I hope it all works out ok ... it sounds like you might need it!

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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by 1234mil17 on 23/05/12, 06:28 am

    Hi Ryan i think that many of the husbands if had known all what was expected of them once they were married would have had 2nd thoughts , but are usually too far into the relationship to pull out and think they can sort out things later ,but only then do they find out that they are even deeper in the sh## Laughing MIL
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by Robert on 23/05/12, 08:40 am

    Hi Mil.

    How you describe your Chinese woman in your previous post is pretty accurate for some Chinese woman but in every culture has good and bad. But then again us men are not much better when we go to China to meet our intended we treated it like a holiday spending money very freely giving the impression we're quite rich when majority are just average guys on average incomes, than we have the communication problems creating more confusion she thinks your rich and you don't understand, then her friends say he may buy you a apartments in China and take care of the family which she says yes of course he will, then she be thinking she be getting a real well paid job when she comes to your country earning lots of money not realising the cost of living in your country and her English will only allow her to have a low paid job.Then reality of life set in she realises you're not rich she feels like she'd been con you think you been taken for a ride, this can go two ways you argue to point you get divorced or both realised the mistake get on with your life as it is. But does she tell her family and friends back home in China that her husband is not rich, no she doesn't she never tell then bad news if you cannot come to China that year she never says she cannot afford to she will say I am too busy making lots of money she as to save face to her family and friends, back home her family and friends tell all there friends she's doing really well very rich than the next Chinese lady meets a Westerner than she under the same illusion.

    Some Chinese women can be obsessed with money but they have other obsessions like not wasting food or water, saving money you don't know nothing about which is not bad better not having debt what you don't nothing about, never throwing anything away

    But not all Chinese women marry for money some are divorce or widowed with children is not easy to remarried in China for cultural reasons not all Chinese women want to live in the West then again when you start writing to Chinese lady make it quite clear you're not rich, using a translator or matchmaker he or she may not mention this in your correspondents because he wants a successful union because he wants to be paid.Some translators will tell her your future husband will pay my cost she thinks its normal practice you know about it but you don't so be careful

    One criticism I have of Chinese women they never learn any think about your culture or your country they think the same laws in China applied in your country and their culture is the same as yours the first 12 months your lady being your country could send you into a mental institution so don't be under any illusion she understands even when she tell you, today I look back on my wife arriving in the UK I can laugh now but not then, so be patient and careful.
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by HSV068 on 23/05/12, 02:37 pm

    Robert, you hit the nail on the head, be patient and careful, however another train of thought is, 2 people, 2 cultures, different thinking, personalities, problem , explain, discuss, comunicate, work out what works for the 2 of you, at the end of the day, that is all that matters.

    Kiafeng1, the sun is setting on another day,
    whatever you choose, good luck mate
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    kaifeng1
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by kaifeng1 on 23/05/12, 03:09 pm

    ok lads, it all came to a head today.

    I went and had a late lunch with Zhen and her parents. Long story short, the topic of bride price came up (i pushed the issue as i want them to accept the fact i am already engaged and to finally stop the harassment of asking when we will get engaged!).

    I Clearly stated my point of view, I was very clear and precise with what i wanted to express. i.e not my culture, in my culture you as the brides parents are expected to pay for the wedding, in my culture its totally unacceptable for me to pay any price for what feels like buying a wife blah blah. She should have no fear of me and Zhen running away after all we have lived close with the family now for a year, put up with a lot of stick and we are still here. she should have no fear that if she needed assistance in the future we would help her out just like any child would help their parents but i also threw in the fact that the sons are the primary caretakers in Chinese culture, Zhen joins my family to look after my family if she wants to be so traditional she should consider that. I think this finally got through to the mother. i told her if we have a wedding in Australia i wouldnt expect them to pay for it. I told them i would pay for the wedding in China (i think thats normal anyways) and i didnt expect any gifts from them on the wedding day. i produced 10,000 and sat it on the table. i explained this was a gift and not a cai li?? (bride price) - makes me feel better to fluff out a different name. The mother and father accepted it. They offered to give it back to which i refused. Much beizhou was consumed when 3 neighbours appeared from nowhere and started celebrating with us. So after all this, the price boiled down to a 10,000 gift.

    Now at 11pm as i write this and am already feeling a beizhou induced hangover coming on id just like to thank the guys on this forum for all your help and assistance. If i didnt come on here and ask these questions 2 things would have happened. 1, i would have paid at least 20,000 or 2, all this would have dragged on for lots of heartache and headaches and may have been the end of me and ZhenZhen as i wouldnt have paid the bride price.

    In the end it cost me 10,000rmb or $1500 to get the old biddy off our backs but ive gained a Chinese fiance now in the eyes of the Chinese people (her family) and now we can both move on with our lives and start to plan out a future again.


    Warmest Thanks


    Ryan
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    HSV068
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by HSV068 on 23/05/12, 03:17 pm

    Well done, great for an end for both of you, happy times, cheers
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by Robert on 23/05/12, 03:50 pm

    Hi Ryan.

    That truly wonderful news from 150,000 down to 10,000 you're really understanding Chinese culture and playing them at there own game, just draw a line what you prepare to pay in the future for any illness for the parents.

    Good luck have great future together
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by handyal on 23/05/12, 04:09 pm

    Hi Ryan,
    The 'gift' idea worked. I'm especially pleased for Zhen. Now it's official, her family have no excuse for the abuse and you should now be accepted as a family member. Zhen must be very happy and now you can move forward.
    A great result for all.

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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by handyal on 23/05/12, 06:34 pm

    Hi MIL, and welcome to the forum.

    It's important to try and understand not only the Chinese culture before you get involved in a relationship, but also Chinese history which has formed their culture.
    If you don't realise what your getting involved with, don't blame the Chinese for your ignorance.

    Money is very important to the Chinese for a number of reasons especially as they get older. Family union is also very strong.
    It would be wrong to say all Chinese women are looking for a foreign husband just for their money. Each individual person in China is different just as we are. Different values, different motives.

    Many a member on this forum has a happy relationship with a good wife who is not a gold digger.

    The Chinese probably find our culture just as difficult to understand.

    1234mil17
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by 1234mil17 on 23/05/12, 11:47 pm

    Hi Handyal, thanks for advice ,thats one of the reasons i joined the forum ,to hear the different points of view. i first heard the expres​sion(off the peg wives )20 odd years ago although it was mainly fillapinos it was referring but as time went by the Thia /and Chinese /and the Russians joined the club After hearing some of the stories about wives getting there permanant visa, they then parted from the husband who was usually a lot older , to find a younger husband so i feel a lot of thought should be given before rushing into these relationships ,and i feel the culture thing about family may be correct/ but the money culture is only new as b4 the masses never had money as such and would have survived of there vedgie patch MIL

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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by CPRSCC on 24/05/12, 10:05 am

    Great news, Ryan. Glad it all worked out. As you found out by the offer to return your gift, the actual money had nothing to do with it - it's really all about "face", a concept which we may acknowledge but few of us really understand.

    Mil, the acquisition (and I use that word quite intentionally) of a trophy wife is as fraught with danger in our own countries as it is with a Chinese. The most successful relationships, borne out by the experience of many on this forum, are those which are based on two people having the same or at least similar values and goals. When the age difference is extreme, it is unlikely that this will happen. For those who may be contemplating a wife who is much younger, you are certainly quite correct in advising caution.

    Certainly the Chinese appear to have a stronger preoccupation with money than many of us do. I think, though, that one only has to delve a little into their relatively recent past to see times when most families were poorer than we could possibly imagine. We haven't necessarily had to experience hardship like they have, although most will recall their parents or grandparents talking about the Great Depression and how the thrift that they were forced into stayed with them for their whole lives. This is no different for the Chinese and the parallels with our own society become apparent when looking at younger Chinese who haven't had to experience real hardship.

    That the women demonstrate this isn't really surprising when one considers that, regardless of what might be in the Chinese Constitution, women in China are still very much second class citizens, only having equality where that might suit. Without government pensions, superannuation and the like, it's no wonder that they do whatever they can to ensure their later security.

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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by Graham on 24/05/12, 10:13 am

    Hi Ryan,

    I think I have the most non-traditional Chinese gf ever then.
    Not interested in money, enough to live on is enough.
    Not interested in living in UK.
    Not needing to pay any money to her family.

    Fay has waited almost 3 years now in order for us to be available to marry.
    We live together as a married couple.
    No pushing at all.

    We have a decent age gap of 26 years.

    Gra.
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by Robert on 24/05/12, 02:23 pm

    If want more understanding about Chinese marriage and culture there a very good book call the Wild Swans by Jung Chang it's about three generations of the authors family from 1909 to 1990s, regardless if the family is rich or poor the Chinese see daughter`s as a tool as a financial benefit or for social climbing, you will read about Chinese society before and after Chairman Mao and the changing culture over the years

    As you will read Chinese culture as completely changed just 50 years ago Chairman Mao abolished many of traditions some have come back into fashion so to speak,some families prefer the old-fashioned ways many are turning their back on the old fashion ways including people in the countryside
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by wanneroo on 24/05/12, 03:06 pm

    Hey Robert, I checked our local library, they have the book in stock, I will have a good read of it, It will be very interesting thanks for the info Very Happy Very Happy
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by Chris Seaborn on 25/05/12, 02:30 am

    Ryan has had a good and varied response to his post, and the outcome has been satisfactory to all, I might add we've all gained more knowledge into Chinese thinking. CPRSCC nailed it with the saving face comment, this is backed up with the offer to return the money after it had been secured, also the fact that the final price was so small, compared to the original demand, shows that money wasn't the important thing, I would suggest if Ryan had coughed up the $150,000 initially, he would have been considered a fool within the family, I would say he will have now gained much more respect. One hurdle has been overcome. Well done.

    Cheers,
    Chris.


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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by luckysteve on 30/05/12, 11:02 pm

    Hi Ryan Smile

    A belated welcome to the Forum from me.

    Just finished reading all the posts and really pleased it has all worked out for you in the end.

    Like has been said by previous members, a good Lao Po (Wife) is worth her weight in gold.

    Be lucky and happy.

    Steve and Li Li Very Happy Smile
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by wanneroo on 31/03/13, 05:31 am

    Point to be aware of when marrying a Chinese person, you marry the family. a case for myself is sickness in the family in Nanning. a Niece with a bill for 10,000 Rmb no insurance needs surgery on her neck to remove a benign tumour, poor girl, However the expectation is the family pays what they can to support her, including those married to western husbands with more money, Iam willing to pay some to assist, but large fanilies will keep you poor,just a point to consider when placing the ring on the finger, love overcomes all things I guess, but the practicalities exist and need to be advised before intented committment Just beware !!! love me love the family they will expect it.
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    Re: Bride Price

    Post by davey.B on 05/04/13, 09:40 pm

    Hi Ryan,

    what a difficult situation. I married my wife ( single , never married) living with her parents, no money was ever mentioned . I paid for the wedding dinner and such , i send some money at new year for her parents and have given a gift at each new year. I sent some cash when her mom went to hospital.
    To have so much financial concern up front is a concern . Perhaps you have to step back from the situation , make some clear but simple statements to yourself and your good woman and decied what really matters in all this . This may take days to focus it down to the core issues . Make a choice , choose a course of action and live with the consiquences. That does not mean 'be hard ' . I feel you may benefit from living with a model of the world that fits you.After all you will live with yourself with your outcome . Then action your design for your life based upon the outcomes you want.
    Good luck , be strong , be kind and have compassion for yourself and those you love .Also try to avoid conflict, even if you have to move away from it.
    Regards
    Dave .

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