Crunch Time

We have now been happily married over 20 months, my decision to live in China was a personal one, as stated before my wife's son is 1 of the reasons.
I have been milling over the thought of taking him with us when we finally decide to depart for Australia permenantly.
Only today, after much consideration, through the translator, he has almost no english skills, and does not seem to have the ambition to learn, I asked him what he thought of living full time in Oz.
Explaining that he would be in a totally foreign environment, without his friends and life would be very different from what he knows and understands now.
He is a little emporer at times, and others he can be a very nice human being, this has come to a head since his family home has been demolished for the new high speed rail.
His father has moved in with partner, I believe the house is occuppied by Grandmother, Father and partner, plus the son, in a total of a 2 bedroom place.
The father has custody and has not been spoken to about this, however I think he would reject it immediately, being his only son, so we shall see how this all developes down the track, obviously Jin wants her son with her, me, I am 57 years old with 5 children of my own, now adults and am not keen to take on a 12 year old, who I know will struggle with a new life.
Anybody walked this path, any advice or thoughts ?

yep i will give you the run down shortly lol mil

Hi ,well to kick of with, it can work out ok , my situation was that it was 2 years before i brought wife /boy to oz ,during the 2 years the son who was8/9 at the time was not going to be coming to oz as the father was not giving his permission, which was fine with me ,but at the last minute when we were organising final departure times for oz the father was talked into letting the son go by other members of his family, no problem , but i immediatly said that it was going to stuff things up, as we now had schooling to contend with and would limit our time to do and go places,(right now 5 yrs down the track it still is affecting us we want to to to china now but have to wait till xmas for the 7 week hols plus the fares are about double during all school hols) anyway i reckon 9/10 is about the cut of period for the kids ,for it to be an easy transition to life abroad , our boy had it easy as i have 5/6 grandkids around the same age ,who sort of took him under their wing so has had an easy time picking up the language ect plus someone to hang with. now we have a chinese friend who has moved up from Adelaide for work ,but they have only been together for 2 yrs, and their son is 14 ,same age as our boy but his english is very poor, and he his struggling at school as this is the age things get a bit technical at school ,so as i said , it can work out ok but i suppose it all depends on what you had in mind when marrying a chinese woman When u arrive eventually in oz your first items on the agenda will be your wife will want to work , so YOU will have to organise her Tax File No /you will have to take the boy to school /you will have to take/pickup wife from work/you will have to take her shopping / you now start to get my drift lol maybe you should just stay in china lol your life will be much easier, well hope this helps you lol you might be starting to feel a bit sick now , so will close now hahahah MIL

Hi ,again have just been informed that your wifes ex will not let him go to oz , unless he was a soft rice husband and it sounds that he was not Mil

Hi, 1234mil17, the school struggle has been very well explained to him, I have told him he would be starting from scratch, friends, school, social life etc, plus everything not as he knows it, I am very worried for his self esteem and ability to cope with all the pressure, you may have something about the 9 to 10 age group.
Initially there was no child involved when we met and married, of course any mother would prefer her child to be with her, however this has surfaced probably because Jin feels she can support and care for him, well I can supply the means to.


ps thanx to the anonymous one for your email, your thoughts are greatly appreciated as well  

pps Jin has her learners permit for motorbike in Oz, so when we go back it is just a matter of doing the practical test.
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Hi again i did see that husband had not been approached in your first post, but i can guarantee he will not sign to let him leave the country,as the son is his guarantee for his old age (as you will know it is ingrained in chinese tradition , even in law , i heard lately that children may be fined if they do not look after or visit parents how they would police that i dont know MIL

Roger, all I can do is relate some experience. My old man was an electrical engineer who worked on big projects. So, as kids, every few years we landed in a new country. Sometimes English was the primary language, sometimes not. We coped, learnt what we had to and got on with it. We did have the support of parents though and there was, usually, some kind of expatriate community, even if only amongst the project staff. My point is that children are able to deal with this kind of thing pretty well, generally. From mid-teens it does become a bit more difficult, so for your stepson it is probably advisable for this to happen sooner rather than later.

At 12 he deserves some input into what is about to happen, although he should be made to understand that he has no power of veto, but his wishes will be considered. The positives need to be very strongly stressed - better opportunities and being with his mother being just a start. Don't really understand from your post how close they are, but reckon this may very well be a factor even if he thinks that she's a softer touch than his father. He would need to be convinced that you will support him, not just in the financial sense, and that you and his mother are going to be the rocks that he will need.

From your perspective the difficulty will be committing to this kid and his mother. Having to take a back seat in the family relationship at times will be difficult. You need to be more than 100% sure that this is what you want too, not just for Jin's sake, but your own, and the boy's.

I was separated/divorced for some 15 years before I met Li and during that time I had my share of relationships. Generally with divorced women who had kids (mainly because there aren't too many single 40 somethings). At times the child/children really did intrude on the relationship and I was the outsider. The mother will, almost always, side with her child. Sometimes that can make it pretty damned difficult. It is from this experience that I speak of the need for your commitment.

As far as the boy's father is concerned, the approach needs to be very carefully considered. As Mil suggests, his first reaction will be to oppose the whole idea. However, there may be opportunities to open cracks in his armour. A better life for his son, the release of his current need to support and bring the boy up. Not sure, but you and Jin will know more.

I do acknowledge what Mil says about Chinese tradition but, regardless of what may be enshrined in the Chinese Constitution, the one child policy may very put paid to many thousands of years of tradition as this generation find that they are completely unable, as a couple perhaps with a child of their own, to support maybe four aging parents. Change is happening on many fronts in China, as you will no doubt be aware.

You and Jin need to spend many hours understanding each other's positions on this (have no doubt that you have already) but you both need to understand the difficulties you will face. Your relationship will need to be rock solid to cope.

Thanx for your honest opinion Chris, you are pretty much on the money, Mil17 suggested the family would work on the father to get him to agree, this would not be the case as Jin has not spoken to him or his family for years, and the son has been told we are only in discussion, so keep mum until we have made a firm decision, wont happen, but thats my hope LOL

Hi Roger, Chris's advice is spot on, I had the same relationship problems with past wive's children too, however there is a difference with the mysterious east, boys are different to girls (really! lol), I've had no problems with my daughter whatsoever, the exact opposite in fact, she is a delightful, caring person. A friend of mine in town is married to a Chinese lady and she had a small son, 7 or 8 years old when they first arrived. There were problems, he was an emperor, but my friend was very strong and the lads mother was supportive to him, he has turned into an Aussie! he is now 13 and does not want to go back to China, even for a holiday. He sounds like an Aussie kid, he acts like an Aussie kid and has lots of friends.

There is another advantage unsubstantiated, apart from my own observations, is the mother thing, although my wife would have come to Australia without our daughter, Ting was a great settling down inspiration for my wife. They supported each other very well and as Ting's English improved she was able to help her mother translate English into mandarin so Ying could understand the word. They chatter away and and laugh a lot, unless Ting has bought some piece of new clothing then she gets a telling off, I'll stick my  nose in and say, 'You look very lovely darling', much to Tings' pleasure then we all have a good laugh, my wife doesn't like to waste money! Ring any bells guys? LOL.

My wife has not spoken to her ex husband since they were divorced, to address him to sign the necessary documents was conducted via the family, he refused! Our daughter was not living with him but that made no difference, he would not sign. The Australian immigration department will not allow entry without the other parents' consent. they are very strict on this. We had a great piece of blackmail material, he hadn't paid 'maintenance' since the divorce. He was threatened that he would be taken to court if he didn't sign. He signed. Although this information is not relevant to you Roger, but it may help another reader.

There are some horror stories concerning sons but can be counterbalanced by other ones, as the person I know here. I don't think Roger, if the lad comes here, you'll have many problems with him, I'm sure you'll go fishin' and other father son things, he will adapt pretty quickly, your difficulty will be getting the father to sign. He may see the benefit to his son's life or he may just think about himself. 'Times are a changin' in China and he may be in for a rude shock in his old age.

Every situation is different. Hope you can sort yours out Roger to the advantage of all.

Cheers,
Chris.

Thanx for the feedback Chris, I hope we can find a happy for all solution too.
The info I have it seems girls are far more better able to cope with the relocation,
and the boys tend to struggle and give up, or as in your example excel,
I think Joe would be in the first lot, cheers

In conversation with Jin last night she believes the Chinese education system would be on par with the west, I feel the Aussie education system would be far more advanced, because Joe is about to start Middle school here, which is the equivelant of High School in OZ, he would be right behind the eight ball, is this correct ?

Hi Roger and Jin  .

Please do not take any offence Roger, personally I would give my right arm to have our Daughter living with us in England.

Just like Chris's Ting she is amazing and for me the Daughter any one would be so proud to have.

You are lucky in the respect of having your own children unfortunately for me, I made a couple of bad choices my fault I know when I was younger.
The first choosing the wrong wife and secondly being talked in to having the snip ( which I might add gives Li Li the chance to have a pop at me   ) .
Feng Na calls me Dad and we talk and message each other every day.

At the moment she is in Nanning University trying to learn English so she can come to University here.

Apologies for going on  .

Steve and Li Li   .

Hi Steve and Li Li, as you have read it is a troublesome time for us, Honestly I want the best outcome for Joe, be it staying in China or taking him to Oz, but my gut instinct tells me it would be such a struggle for him, and would throw in the towel and want to return to China, which would put him behind if he returned here, also be a waste of money in the finish.

Everybody is different, the girls seem to adapt easily, the boys seem to be another story, but we will see as time goes on, I cannot even get him to attempt to learn english to a standard that he would be fluent and be able to converse enough to make friends, or attempt school work, as he would enter the system in year 9, feel everything would be stacked against him. cheers Roger and Jin

Roger, it almost sounds like you're assuming that kids are chucked straight in to the education system here with zero English skills. There are programmes to give them the basic language skills and ease them into the system.

I think Roger, the main differences between schooling in Australia and China is that here, from middle school, the children are taught to think rather than just learn by 'drill' Ting noted also that it was much more relaxed in the classroom than it was in China. My daughter had very little English when she arrived here, in China she failed English and wasn't interested in learning. Ha! I stuffed that up! LOL. When Ting knew she was coming to live in Australia she, and her mum, did a 3 month English course in Nanning. I enrolled her in Wonthaggi Secondary College two days after she arrived! Poor kid, she was very scared, I had tears in my eyes when a lovely lady in the office put her arm around her and said, 'Come on Ting, I'll take you to your class'. The school had no dedicated ESL teacher, they shared one with the junior school in town, she had this caring, wonderful teacher a few hours a week. Her other teachers were brilliant too. Ting came home after the first day with a huge smile on her face. Two years later, after much hard work, and dedicated teachers, she gained a place at The University of Melbourne, no mean feat. It's still a struggle, it hasn't been easy, but she's now getting to the end of her penultimate year with the degree in sight. I am so proud of her.

Cheers,
Chris.

At this point it really doesn't matter what you or Jin want because the Father has legal custody.

The Father may be persuaded to give custody to Jin, after all your a rich foreigner, so blackmail for cash isn't out of the question. Family will be less influential.

If the son isn't interested now then your wasting your time and money.
I'm speaking from personal experience.

HSV068 wrote:Thanx for your honest opinion Chris, you are pretty much on the money, Mil17 suggested the family would work on the father to get him to agree, this would not be the case as Jin has not spoken to him or his family for years, and the son has been told we are only in discussion, so keep mum until we have made a firm decision, wont happen, but thats my hope LOL  

Joe has talked to his father about this, as expected, the initial reaction was no, but apparently has now been persuded by a friend who spoke of a better life for his son, but saying yes and signing the papers are 2 different things.
However he is aware of the situation.

We have now decided on an English teacher, at a school that is convenient for both Joe and us, hours are sold in groups of 10 up to 100, the price scaled the more money you put up.
There has been an appointment made and cancelled by the teacher, however we are to meet with him/her at 1 pm tomorrow, tonight Joe spoke to his mother and said it was inconvenient, I spat it.
Cannot believe Jin was going to let him get away with this one, she started to me, "his friend", I said his friend is not going to put up the money for him to learn english or take him to Australia. Joe has a half hour introduction, then we will have a discussion, work out if this boy can have a crack.
It is getting to the stage if he misses a lesson, or does not apply himself my decision will be made.

Yes Roger it should be made clear to Jin and Joe that he has one chance at this but realise Joe won't get any help from his dad, the opposite in fact. Is he going to be living with you or the father during this period? If he's living with the father you can bet your bottom dollar there will be no encouragement from him, more likely to find ways to get him to skip the lessons. Jin, if she really wants her son to go with you, must step in and assert some real influence on Joe.I'm sure Ting would have gone to her lessons in that situation, even though she didn't like English at all, but regardless of that, her mum said that was what was going to happen and Ting obeyed. Ying ended up going with her to gain a little knowledge too. Perhaps jin and Joe could go to the classes together until Joe gets the hang of it. He will need encouragement and maybe a little push.


Cheers,
Chris.

Hi , a little PUSH , more like a kick up the ar,,e lol, i must say i see many problems for HSV unless he puts his foot down now ! you are the head of the house hold , i was in a similar situation and made it clear from the outset you will find that you are maybe No 3/4 in the proceedings Son comes 1st /second money/ third her family/ then you (maybe) You will find with the schooling Jin will want the boy to go to Uni ,thats if he ever gets to OZ , and are you prepared to pay his way through while he is behaving like an ar,,ewhole which it sounds like when he is 16/17 he will be ,you should give them the ultimations now, as to how things are going to be ,your way , Mil

Agree Mil, I should grow some balls and lay down the law, but my thinking is let him stuff it up for himself, then there is no comeback, because if he does not measure up here, how the hell would he survive out of his comfort zone, thanx for the comment, cheers

Hi again ,i only mention this , as it will! affect the harmony between you and your wife, one way or another mil

It's a bit like being between 'the devil and the deep blue sea'. it can effect harmony if he doesn't go and likewise if he stays. If the son is known to be an A/H then the answer is simple. But the universities in Melbourne have loads of Chinese lads doing very well and studying hard. We have paid nothing in the ways of uni fees for Ting she has funded it herself by working and with Centrelink help. She can't get the government HECs scheme help because she's not an Australian citizen. If she were a citizen then the government would pay the fees until you have a job with sufficient income to start paying it back...at no interest. Secondary schooling isn't too costly either if you're on a low income.

Cheers,
Chris.

I would call it a rock and a hard place Chris, damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
He has now had 2 hours 1 on 1 in a private teaching facility, 90rmb/hour, in a room, no computer, no tv, just furniture and books, maybe this will get him wanting to learn, no distractions, but at the end of the day, it is all up to him, with me making the final decision, cheers

ps They are also helping him with his maths, which is at a low grade now, time will tell